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SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board

Olympic Wedgie
Walter Calahan, Photographer
Westminster | MD | USA | Posted: 4:06 PM on 08.17.08
->> Interesting vantage point, I guess.

http://open.salon.com/content.php?cid=9730

Or why many love women's beach volleyball.

Your thoughts please.
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Bob Ford, Photographer
Lehighton | Pa | USA | Posted: 5:46 PM on 08.17.08
->> Walter, of the 40 students at SSA IV I bet 30 took a similar shot while covering beach volleyball, including me. It's one of those shots that I thought would be original and interesting. It turned out to be neither.

There might be a way to shoot it that looks cool, but I couldn't figure it out. It was interesting to see that almost everyone shot it though.
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Walter Tychnowicz, Photographer
Edmonton | Alberta | Canada | Posted: 6:40 PM on 08.17.08
->> If I remember correctly waaay back in the 2001 Track and Field games in Edmonton , an US Olympic runner whose name I cannot remember at the moment had these Huge painted fingernails and she had her hands on her lower hips at the time ( which is near the rear-end I assume) A few photogs had focused in on these said hands/fingernails on said region and at that time it was a neat and interesting shot. ( it may have had the stars and stripes painted on them , but I may be wrong on that one, still looking for the photo). Sometimes a photo like that works, sometimes it doesn't. I know a few of the photographers didn't travel all the way there just to shoot a bum shot.
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Steve Ueckert, Photographer
Houston | TX | USA | Posted: 8:32 PM on 08.17.08
->> Walter T--

It sounds like you are describing Flo-Jo (Florence Griffith Joyner) from 1988, Seoul.

She was already gone by 2001.

--Steve
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Adam Cairns, Photographer
Columbus | OH | USA | Posted: 8:54 PM on 08.17.08
->> http://tinyurl.com/5sxndh

I just saw this on Yahoo's most viewed photos. I'm having a hard time figuring out why it was ever submitted to the AP wire.
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Wayne Short, Photographer
Kingsville | TX | USA | Posted: 8:58 PM on 08.17.08
->> That would be Gail Devers.

http://www.gaildevers.com/photoalbum_sport2.htm
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Walter Tychnowicz, Photographer
Edmonton | Alberta | Canada | Posted: 10:05 PM on 08.17.08
->> Hi Adam, Yeah Flo Jo started the finger nail thing I also remember that too . A Big thanks to Jim Atoa ( And Wayne Short ) who did say that is was Gail Devers that had the finger nails. The point I make is that when photogs were shooting that photo at the time, some people thought we are doing a butt shot, but in fact it was the fingernails with the bib that made it an interesting photo at the time. But I along with the other more tallented photographers was not there to shoot buttshots of the female athletes. Thats all I was saying.
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Walter Tychnowicz, Photographer
Edmonton | Alberta | Canada | Posted: 10:05 PM on 08.17.08
->> Sorry Adam I meant to respond to Steve ! My Bad in the quick posting !
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Bob Ford, Photographer
Lehighton | Pa | USA | Posted: 10:25 PM on 08.17.08
->> Rick Rickman had some great shots of Devers, nails and all, at the 2004 Athens Olympics.

http://www.sportsshooter.com/news/1261
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George Bridges, Photographer, Photo Editor
Washington | DC | USA | Posted: 11:31 PM on 08.17.08
->> While these shots tend to get a chuckle in the States and it can be hard to get American photogs to shoot it at times -- ok, maybe not to shoot it but to file it -- you have to remember that many tabloids in Europe still have a "page 3 girl' feature and these images sell well there. They are not so put out by this angle for an image and I'm sure many papers feel their readers want to see it.

Heck, in Paris you can find book and magazine covers with full nudity at street vendors so they are not quite as offended as some Americans when these images run in the paper.
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 12:40 AM on 08.18.08
->> hey george. check out what I posted at 11:04? same thing you said. well sorta.

http://www.sportsshooter.com/message_display.html?tid=30386

cheers dude!
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George Bridges, Photographer, Photo Editor
Washington | DC | USA | Posted: 1:02 AM on 08.18.08
->> Chuck,

Kudos for using the words "prurient" and "titillating"

I woulda just said "we're a bunch of sticks in the mud"
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Juerg Schreiter, Photographer
Fort Lauderdale | FL | USA | Posted: 6:04 AM on 08.18.08
->> check out some of the German 'Olympic Girls'

Athletes and Playboy Models..... here they'd [probably get kicked off the team.

http://tinyurl.com/6qpfsz (age 18+ only)
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David Harpe, Photographer
Louisville | KY | USA | Posted: 9:15 AM on 08.18.08
->> I'm having a hard time figuring out why it was ever submitted to the AP wire.

What was it someone said the other day when talking about that wide shot of the photography pit at the Olympics? "A profession overrun by middle-aged males..." or something like that?

That's why...
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Patrick Meredith, Photographer, Assistant
Austin | TX | USA | Posted: 11:05 AM on 08.18.08
->> Can we keep links to porn out of these forums??????
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Scott Utterback, Photographer
Louisville | Ky | USA | Posted: 11:30 AM on 08.18.08
->> I think this is part of the debate Patrick. I don't consider those photos to be porn. A good chunk of Europe doesn't consider it porn.

Why do we as Americans equate nudity with sin?
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Patrick Meredith, Photographer, Assistant
Austin | TX | USA | Posted: 1:20 PM on 08.18.08
->> I'm all for open discussion on this board, but I think we should keep it professional in doing so.

Whether or not you consider the link to be offensive, I believe there is a huge difference in the discussion of taking/submitting a photo of an athlete's backside to posting links of nude women in a pornographic magazine.
My .02 cents...
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Manuello Paganelli, Photographer
Los Angeles | CA | USA | Posted: 1:34 PM on 08.18.08
->> This is so laughable that I will add a few things.

Where is the porn in here?

Nudity is a sin although is part of us and how the "CREATOR" MADE US, yet in the USA you folks rather see Rambo or the USA invading other nations and killing thousands of innocent people? YEt watching a nude woman or man will send you to hell? What type of brain configuration is this.

God greatest creation was the human form yet some of you rather see a sunset or a damn flower and call it beautiful instead of a beautiful nude body?

please dont travel to
France or Spain where you will see all those beautiful slim white euro chics naked at the beach and all natural without any plastic surgery.

please dont buy any newspapers/magz any place in Europe for you will see all those beautiful Europe girls nude. Old and young.

Please dont turn any tv, any where in europe, for you will see nake people having sex any time on tv either on a movie or the local tv series. Yet NOBODY in Europe, from grandparents to kids swimming nude at a beach or pool, has an issue. Except for the USA. The world is a lot bigger than the USA.

Why is the USA so damn puritan yet so hypocritical? NO 2 SEX but yes to KILLING either in the USA, home, schools, work, post office or in other countries.

NO to NUDITY but then find those kids and adults using their computers and playboy magz so they can see nake girls or get into deeper problems. Those problems are rooted in the closed minded way USA society has develop when it comes to some art form or the way a nude body is perceived.

Great thing that all the masters painters were Europeans otherwise most of their canvases would have been burn here in the USA along with their bodies. Goodbye Picasso, Goya. Goodbye to all the renaissance painters for they too use plenty of nudity in their master pieces. Goodbye to "the David" for he is naked and would have to be taken down.

Ironically, check out some of those gov buildings in Washington, DC and you will see plenty of naked female sculptures with large breast to humble any porn star.

No wonder Edward Weston had to live in Mexico part of his life.

Please folks dont confuse pornographic with fine arts nude or just plain nudity and for sure dont crucify the rest who do it or enjoy viewing it.

More 2 Come

Pag

http://www.ManuelloPaganellil.com
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Rick Rowell, Photographer, Photo Editor
Vista | CA | USA | Posted: 2:28 PM on 08.18.08
->> Does anyone remember the SI photo of the Romanian gymnastics team bowing to the crowd at the medal ceremony during the 84 Olympics? Nothing new here. I thought it was in bad taste then and now.
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Jack Joseph Jr., Photographer
Scottsdale | AZ | USA | Posted: 4:18 PM on 08.18.08
->> I agree with Rick, this subject is not in good taste.

Sometimes there are shots that photographers look at and smile but definitely don't pass around. Let's face it there are a zillion possibilities for some naughty images while shooting sports.

A look too far up the shorts shooting soccer, a classic camel-toe shot or two during volleyball and way too much crotch photographing cheerleaders. . . It just happens. One of the marks of a mature person is that they don't run around with their tongues or whatever hanging out flaunting their questionable pictures. Those images go in the trash can.

I think that a bit of maturity and professionalism is called for here.
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Rick Rowell, Photographer, Photo Editor
Vista | CA | USA | Posted: 4:21 PM on 08.18.08
->> Yes Pag, when it comes to sex all of us Americans are a bunch of blood thirsty puritan murderers, and all of the Europeans are perfect people that have no faults or hang ups. Are you serious with that post?
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Rick Rowell, Photographer, Photo Editor
Vista | CA | USA | Posted: 4:50 PM on 08.18.08
->> Jack,to be clear,I wasn't referring to the subject of this thread being in poor taste. I was referring to the SI image from the 84 Olympics being in poor taste as well as some of the wedgie images and links to nude images being posted here.
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Andrew Carpenean, Photographer
Laramie | WY | USA | Posted: 5:02 PM on 08.18.08
->> Manuello,

I understand your rant about what is fine art vs. pornography, but when it comes to innocent lives being lost I totally disagree. Just because our government makes certain decisions it doesn't mean every one of us back those decisions, especially when going to war. I for one don't believe in war. I always hope for an alternative.

Regarding the volleyball player I can make a connection that the player is giving a signal behind her back and so at least the photo shows something happening. The AP photo of the young gymnast just standing there for me isn't strong enough of an image to make sense running or for that matter the AP posting it.

Also, I think we have to keep in mind the age of these gymnasts and to be sensitive as to what light we are showing them to the masses. It may build a bad reputation for an individual photographer in having to explain why this type of photo was taken, but it can also send out a bad vibe toward photographers who are male in gender.

Regarding pornography, its degrading to women and ultimately its degrading to men. Regarding the magazine pictures I would consider the photography as fine art in nature, not pornography. No one is forcing these athletes to pose and I understand a different aspect to European culture, but that still may not be appropriate to the way many feel here in America and I am respectful of that.
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Mark Peters, Photographer
Highland | IL | USA | Posted: 5:24 PM on 08.18.08
->> Manuello,

We were taught in my college logic course to avoid the use absolutes as they diminish the value of (if not outright impeach) your argument as it allows the other side to rebut you with a single example.

Your post only serves to reinforce that point in my mind.
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Scott Utterback, Photographer
Louisville | Ky | USA | Posted: 5:25 PM on 08.18.08
->> I should clarify while the nude photos don't bother me I do find the first image of this thread in poor taste.
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Jack Howard, Photographer, Photo Editor
Central | NJ | USA | Posted: 1:50 PM on 08.19.08
->> Apparently, hand signals play a much greater significance in the female variation of Beach Volleyball, as evidenced by sheer number of hand-signal closeups in the woman's game...we're talking fiddler crab syndrome to several orders of magnitude here!

Seriously, can anyone point quickly to, um, let's say 5 ass and "finger signal" closueup frames from the men's beach volleyball coverage on a mainstream site?

Are any newspapers or sports magazines packing their pages full of "cheeky" captions masquerading as real editorial coverage?

Why don't all these news sites simply have the "volleys" to state plainly: "We know sex sells, here's a thinly veiled editorial excuse to pack our website full of closeup shots of athletic female glutes with little or no fabric covering the sexy bits."
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Svein Ove Ekornesvaag, Photographer
Aalesund | Møre og Romsdal | Norway | Posted: 5:08 PM on 08.19.08
->> Chuck is spot on with his post in the other thread.

For us in Europe it seems like in the US violence, blood, weapons, killing and fighting are no problem, but a nipple or a butt on tv is like the end of the world. Even t-shirt logos get sensored on tv in US, thats really funny. What's next?

The norwegian gold medal winner in Bejing was swearing a lot on national tv when celebrating his victory. Did anyone care? No.

I read an interview with the Norwegian beachvolley player a couple of weeks before the Olympics, she said that the "issue" with women wearing bikini when playing beachvolley was ONLY created by the media. None of the female players wanted to play in another outfit.

I heard that the guys wants to play without shirts but they have to wear them because of the sponsor logos.
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Stew Milne, Photographer
Providence | RI | USA | Posted: 7:01 PM on 08.19.08
->> Adam: Ditto on the Shawn Johnson behind photo. There's a better time to get photos of a gymnast's grips. I found that photo and a few other by the same photog (i actually know and
like him) to be a little off. His pick of Nastia Liukin's dismount on bars, arguably the most graceful gymnast, shows her all grimaced and contorted.

I've photographed gymnastics for 8 years and I capture those types of moment all the time, but I never submit them to my clients as they don't show the athlete in a positive light. I've seen a lot of "bad" gymnastics moments submitted by the wire services over the Olympics. I can tell the shooters don't photograph gymnastics on a regular basis.

-sM
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Guy Rhodes, Photographer
East Chicago | IN | USA | Posted: 7:56 PM on 08.19.08
->> "I've photographed gymnastics for 8 years and I capture those types of moment all the time, but I never submit them to my clients as they don't show the athlete in a positive light."

So photojournalists are only supposed to show athletes in a positive light, when they look their best?
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Stew Milne, Photographer
Providence | RI | USA | Posted: 9:05 PM on 08.19.08
->> Guy, the short answer, "No." In gymnastics, the point is to make incredible feats of athleticism look incredibly graceful. When you watch gymnastics live, you don't see the grimacing faces or contorted bodies. Only when you capture them at 10 fps to you see this stuff. So given the choice between a photo that shows the gymnast as graceful or one where their body is pulling 3 Gs during a dismount, which do you think is more appropriate?
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Doug Holleman, Photographer
Temple | TX | USA | Posted: 9:11 PM on 08.19.08
->> I enjoy viewing the female anatomy as much as the next guy, but I wish they would wear suits that actually fit. The wedgie look is unflattering.
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Manuello Paganelli, Photographer
Los Angeles | CA | USA | Posted: 10:10 PM on 08.19.08
->> Rick is not about perfection, faults and hang ups. But that is pretty much the way Europe and many other nations see the USA. Run from nudity or black out on TV something that should come natural as love making yet embrace arms, violence & blood. I hear it all the time from my cousins in Italy and all my friends across the Old Country and living here for so many yrs I know is true.
In Europe and nothing to do with sex, be with m/f friends or relatives, is very easy for us to take our clothes off and jump into the ocean/lake without any qualms or worries. The only exception maybe the UK and we know where the word PURITAN came from.

Mark in college in my wonderful Tennessee I was too busy studying sciences like bio, Chem and calculus. SO I missed all college logic classes.

Fortunately for me and where really matters I learned the HARD KNOCKS of negotiating and trying to get better rates and better deals from my photo clients and owning all my rights. And believe or no, plenty of other photographers had beneficiated from that knowledge and experience.

Adam
http://tinyurl.com/5sxndh maybe they wanted to showcase the apparatus she is wearing on her hands. IS that a normal wear? Maybe she is having problems with her fingers who knows and that is why she is wearing those things. But that caught my eyes. Or maybe the company who makes them was paying AP a high fee. LOts of reasons which we dont know.

Women doing hands signs? Sex sell and it looks better than men. But I agree they should be showing men as well. Also nO different from catchers doing their signals right in from of their crotches.

Chuck I just read your post and we both agree on that as well as the rest of Europe.

http://www.sportsshooter.com/message_display.html?tid=30386

DO you guys know that the very first Olympics it was done all IN THE NUDE!

More 2 Come

Pag

http://www.ManuelloPaganelli.com
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Bruce Twitchell, Photographer
Coeur d'Alene | ID | USA | Posted: 10:40 PM on 08.19.08
->> Stew Milne said-
"Guy, the short answer, "No." In gymnastics, the point is to make incredible feats of athleticism look incredibly graceful. When you watch gymnastics live, you don't see the grimacing faces or contorted bodies. Only when you capture them at 10 fps to you see this stuff. So given the choice between a photo that shows the gymnast as graceful or one where their body is pulling 3 Gs during a dismount, which do you think is more appropriate?"

First, it is not the 10 fps that is capturing the "grimacing faces or contorted bodies," it would be the fast shutter speed that is freezing the action and allowing us to see the faces and bodies as they are frozen in action. This can be captured at 1 fps.

Second, in answer to your question, I would say that neither is more appropriate, it is not the job of a photojournalist to decide if a flattering or unflattering photo is more "appropriate." If I had to choose though, I would go with the one that is showing the grimacing face or contorted body. Why? Because this is not what the average viewer sees. Why show them in a still photo what they have already seen? Why not use the tools of the still and camera and the power of the still image to show the viewer something new? Showing the faces at 3 Gs and the body contorted in a frozen moment in time gives the viewer a true look at what the gymnast is doing, not what they want us to think he/she is doing. If all photojournalists do is print what they think is more "appropriate" than the truth will not be told in its entirety. Doing a quick GIS I came across this image-
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii3/athletebabes/nastialiukin2.jpg

By your definitions this would not be an appropriate image. I disagree. I think it shows the amazing ability she has to perform do a jump that 99.9% of the rest of the population could not even dream of doing. You can see in her face and body that it is challenging and not easy, that she is working hard. To me, that makes this image all the more powerful.
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Manuello Paganelli, Photographer
Los Angeles | CA | USA | Posted: 10:50 PM on 08.19.08
->> Stew sayyy what? What ever happened to the agony of defeat?
What about any basketball or baseball team loosing the final match and crying? We should only photographed the winners.

A bad landing or flipping the wrong way is what cost these athletes any chance at the Gold medal so capturing that moment is as important as winning it.

YOu folks remember the famous pic of Mary Decker bumping into Zola Budd, falling and then crying while my brilliant friend Burnett, as usual at the right place and time, recording that iconic image.

For sure that wasnt a positive moment but is part of the sport and history and if it makes a difference it should see the light.

More 2 Come

http://www.ManuelloPaganelli.com
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Mark Peters, Photographer
Highland | IL | USA | Posted: 10:53 PM on 08.19.08
->> Guess that's the benefit of a good old well rounded LAS course of study. Got to fit in the philosophy and hard sciences in between the economics and business courses.

The issue is not so much with the message Pag - it's with the delivery. I must have missed the chapter on pontification in the art of persuasion. Using such a broad brush hides the core of the message and makes it quite easy for those who are not inclined to agree to dismiss it overall.

Guess that "prudery" creeps into the old world occasionally as well
http://www.shortnews.com/start.cfm?id=72469

and for what it's worth I own all of my copyrights.
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Andrew Carpenean, Photographer
Laramie | WY | USA | Posted: 11:03 PM on 08.19.08
->> Svein,

Something tells me that americans who condone violence are not necessarily ones who are bothered by a nipple being shown on the boob tube. This seems to be a sterotype of our culture of apparentley many of us americans in your generalization. Maybe as such there might be assumptions we have of other countries.

What are your thoughts about the two photos at hand? Would your local newspaper run these types of photos that lack in any profound content, that tells a story about what?

My thoughts are the headline is sensationalizing the news by insinuating this is pornography. Although I still believe the photo of the gymnast is in poor taste. If its to show the wraps on her wrists I don't take that from the photo. Perhaps a closer image while she is actually using her hands in an event.
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Rick Rowell, Photographer, Photo Editor
Vista | CA | USA | Posted: 11:51 PM on 08.19.08
->> Manuello, Who's embracing arms, violence and Blood? All Americans including me? Of course the last two great wars of the 20th century did not happen in Europe, but some fantasy land in your imagination. DO NOT generalize about people and their behaviors or preferences. People are the same all over the world, we just speak in different languages. Most of us just want to live a comfortable life full of love and happiness. We may disagree on how to get there, but we still want to be in that place we can all call home. Your original post comes off to me at least, as a little elitist in it's tone. OK, I know this post is OT, so I'll shut up for now.
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Svein Ove Ekornesvaag, Photographer
Aalesund | Møre og Romsdal | Norway | Posted: 7:12 AM on 08.20.08
->> Rick,

I'm not sure wich images you referr to, but the biggest newspaper in Norway ran a story about the finger signs in beachvolley. The article had 4 pictures(of the norwegian players) showing different signs with their fingers.
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Stew Milne, Photographer
Providence | RI | USA | Posted: 9:17 AM on 08.20.08
->> Manuello, your scenarios are different. There's nothing wrong with the agony of defeat, or showing pix of the losing team as they cry or whatever. I'm talking about showing a photo that doesn't really depict what was "really" happening. Yes, she did flip and make that face, but she didn't fall during that routine. This is the only time during the bar routine that she doesn't look graceful. Why pick the one moment to photograph and upload to the wire? Pag, you missed my point.

Bruce, I stand corrected. Yes, its the high shutter speed that froze the grimace. And the image you reference in you post of Nastia on beam. That one I don't have a problem with. I agree with you on showing the viewers what they don't always get to see, but I think showing Nastia grimacing with her legs spread open during her dismount is not a winner.

Maybe the word appropriate was not the word I was looking for. Maybe, "in better taste?"

Back on the topic: I have nothing against tasteful nudity.

Oh, someone asked or mentioned that maybe the photo of Shawn's behind was showing something special or extraordinary. Well, it wasn't She was wearing her grips, which most gymnasts do, to perform on the uneven bars. There's nothing special or different about those grips either.
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Rick Rowell, Photographer, Photo Editor
Vista | CA | USA | Posted: 3:29 PM on 08.20.08
->> Svein, I don't object to the photos of the Norwegian players showing the signs they use during the game. Those photos tell a story. As you are probably very much aware, photojournalism is all about telling the story. The image that I thought had no story telling value is the A.P. photo of Shawn Johnson waiting her turn at the uneven bars. The only story telling value with this photo is, LOOK IT'S SHAWN'S BUTT!!! Did that story really need to be told? If you want to show the hand grips and how they are used, then I think it would be better as a close up action photo that shows the hand or hands gripping the bar or losing the grip on the bar. But that's just my opinion. As for linking on this message board to sites that are obviously pornographic in nature,they just don't belong here. Soft porn or "tastefully" done porn is still porn. All of the people who view this site and the links to other sites are not all 18 or older. It's possible that some of our members on this site have under age children who read this message board and click on the links. The point could have been made without supplying the link, IMHO.
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