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|| SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board
aerial photograph, advice needed for 1st time
Sam Carleton, Photographer
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Mason | OH | USA | Posted: 8:28 PM on 08.03.08 |
->> The president of the local high school football booster club has asked me to some aerial photography.
Over the summer the football field had astro turf installed. The president thought an aerial shot of the team running out on to the field the first time would be a great shot and a wonderful money maker for me.
This is going to be my first time shooting any aerial photography and I want to get it right, so does anyone have any pointers?
I going to rent a 3 person helicopter. I am planing on having my 13-year-old son the #3 guy and have him handle communications with the ground. Air space restrictions should not be an issue, we are in a suburb of Cincinnati, Ohio, but I was going to leave that one to the company in which I rent the helicopter.
The big question I have is what lens should I be shooting it with and from what angle? My thought is, to get the most dramatic image, shoot with the wides lens possible from the lowest possible angle while still getting the stadium lights in the shot. In 35mm full frame speak, I was initially thinking of shooting with an 85mm. But then I thought that if I where to go wide, like 28mm and get in close, that would be far more dramatic. Or would it look best to keep a normal prospective and shoot it with a 50mm? How would you shoot it and why?
Sam Carleton
developer of Photo Parata Event Photography Software
http://www.photoparata.com |
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Walter Calahan, Photographer
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Westminster | MD | USA | Posted: 9:01 PM on 08.03.08 |
->> 3-person helicopter??????????????????????
National Geographic wrote extensively to its photographers on renting helicopters after a couple of fatal crashes.
Do you know anything about the pilot? The track record of this company?
Safety is the big question, not which lens to use.
Contact Cameron Davidson, a fell SportsShooter, to get the help you need. |
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Mike Isler, Photographer
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New York | NY | US | Posted: 9:09 PM on 08.03.08 |
->> Sam,
While the article is a little bit dated, Vincent Laforet's "Digital Aerials" article on Rob Galbraith's site is chock full of valuable information. View it here: http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.asp?cid=7-6454-6928 .
Regarding communication with the ground, what do you plan on using for that? Communication can be a difficult thing from a helicopter. You do have several options... the first could be borrowing a VHF transceiver from the helicopter company, and giving it to a person on the ground. That way, your pilot can speak directly to someone on the ground. The second option is getting a cell phone interface for a helicopter headset, or a headset with the cell interface built in. Again, ask the helicopter company about that. Sometimes they work great...other times, they work poorly or not at all. Thirdly, you could use a custom interface cable that hooks a two-way radio inline with your headset. This would be the most reliable way, in my opinion. I have tried using cell phone handsfree headsets, tucking the earbud inside the headset... as well as getting the surveillance earbud for two-way radios, and tucking that inside the headset... it just doesn't work. Your microphone will pick up so much noise inside the helicopter, it'll be useless. Plan out your comms well before you lift off. Lastly, you could use text messages...or BlackBerry Messenger on a blackberry (or instant messenger on an iPhone).
Plan your flight out with the pilot before you take off... discuss angles, what you want to see, and altitudes. The wind direction will affect which way the helicopter will be able to fly slowly (assuming you're chartering a small piston helicopter... Schweizer 300 / Robinson R44). On the Schweizer, there's no back seat... so you only have one side you can shoot from, and that's opposite the pilot. So, the wind will affect how you can shoot. On the Robinson, you could shoot from the back seat on either side. Choose based on the wind and how you want to position with respect to the stadium.
Keep everything strapped to you. Use extreme care changing lenses and CF cards (avoid it if possible)... as most likely you'll be flying with the door removed. Fly with absolutely minimal gear.
As for lenses, that's tough to say. Are you shooting this at sunset? Will there be a crowd in the bleachers you want to include/exclude? Opposing team? Shooting loose may yield you images that have more resale potential later on, as they won't be as dated. On the other hand, by shooting tight you might find something very dramatic.
You say "28mm and get in close"... well, how close do you have in mind? If you're talking flying at 100ft or lower, perhaps it's better to rent a 120' boom lift / aerial work platform. Much less noise, and you may be able to get an angle you can't get from the air.
There are a few good aerial photographers on SportsShooter whose advice might be valuable to you...perhaps one will chime in.
Good luck,
Mike |
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Mike Isler, Photographer
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New York | NY | US | Posted: 9:14 PM on 08.03.08 |
->> To second Walt's advice, SS members Cameron Davidson as well as Vincent Laforet and Dan Megna are experts at aerial photography. Dan (I believe) is a pilot, and also shoots aircraft.
Here's Cameron Davidson's article, "First Time Aerials" - http://www.sportsshooter.com/news/1214 |
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Doug Murray, Photographer
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West Palm Beach | FL | USA | Posted: 9:19 PM on 08.03.08 |
->> Sam,
Unless you planning to do a straight look down shot (plan view), I would go with Mike Isler's suggestion of the boom lift.
If you have not done so already you should check with the helicopter company to see how low they can fly over the stadium, they may have some restrictions.
Below is a previous thread with lots of good information.
http://www.sportsshooter.com/message_display.html?tid=23524
Good luck and be safe.
Doug |
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Vincent Laforet, Photographer
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New York | NY | USA | Posted: 9:23 PM on 08.03.08 |
->> You're probably riding in a Robinson 22 - or 44 - that's my best guess... I wouldn't got lower than 1,000 feet - maybe 500 feet minimum - and nothing shorter than an 85mm - I'd go up w/ a 70~200mm...
These "3 people" helicopters don't have the engine/power to hover - nor go low... so I'd steer very clear of that... you'd need a stunt pilot and a Twin-star to fly close enough to shoot w/ a 24 mm (unless of course you want the team small w/ the entire stadium -then of course you can shoot w/ a 24mm)
Lastly - your biggest challenge will be helo to ground communication- make sure whatever cell/radio you have is connected to your headset - as shooting into a radio/cell doesn't work well - the noise of the helicopter drowns out both your shouting into the michrophone - and the people on the ground can't hear the radios because they too are drowned out by the helo.
My two cents: use a forklift that goes up 100 ft - cost about the same as a helo - you get much more control - and it's much much safer for everyone... definitely not as sexy... but heck it's about as safe as you're gonna get... (make sure you can drive it onto the field w/o damaging the turf of course - I've done it and it hasn't been a problem.)
Hope this helps |
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Vincent Laforet, Photographer
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New York | NY | USA | Posted: 9:25 PM on 08.03.08 |
| ->> Looks like Mike and Doug beat me to it (we must have all been typing at the same time) - I think we all agree - 120 " boom or scissor lift... |
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Dave Collyer, Photographer
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Haleiwa | HI | USA | Posted: 9:31 PM on 08.03.08 |
->> Hi Sam
Shooting from a helicopter is exciting. I did it last summer on an assignment and we launched from a helipad on a boat in Indonesia (I was shooting surf)! It was a 3 seater if you count the pilot as the fourth.
As mentioned the doors were removed and it was windy, loud and shaky! The pilot put me in some good, yet precarious, positions leaning out the door to get the shots I wanted (double check your communication with the pilot before take off). Having my seat beat buckled tight was key as was having two cameras ready and strapped.
Another suggestion is boosting your shutter speed as the chopper really shakes and a few of my shots weren't as tight as I would have liked. I usually pay more attention to such things, but it is pretty exciting and it goes really fast when you are firing away and spending hundreds of dollars in minutes (deep breath, remain calm).
I used a 16-35mm with my 40D and a 70-200mm with my MarkIIn. Got some great shots and loved it. Email me directly if you have any specific questions. Have fun and good luck. |
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Dave Collyer, Photographer
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Haleiwa | HI | USA | Posted: 9:34 PM on 08.03.08 |
| ->> I am just a rookie...listen to Vincent and get the lift (it won't be as much fun though!) |
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Sam Carleton, Photographer
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Mason | OH | USA | Posted: 9:53 PM on 08.03.08 |
->> Hay guys,
First off, my initial though had been a lift, not a helo. It was the booster club prez that pushed me into seriously thinking of renting a helo.
Thank you all for your thoughts and especially for the link to Cameron Davidson's article, "First Time Aerials". The idea of a piston helo isn't so fun anymore, and it is flat out scary, now I think about it in the right term.
As far as what is more fun, for me it is all about the picture, the funnest route is the safest route to the best picture! The lift will give me both, lots of safety and lots of control! I will be calling around now for lift's now, not helo rentals:)
Again, thank you all!
Sam |
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Trevor Walker, Photographer
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Powell | OH | USA | Posted: 9:55 PM on 08.03.08 |
| ->> If you go with the helo, gaffer your seat buckle so a camera strap or something doesn't unlock it. |
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Pedro Diaz, Photographer
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Miami Beach | FL | United States | Posted: 10:18 PM on 08.03.08 |
| ->> be sure the pilot is not drunk...:) |
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Sam Carleton, Photographer
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Mason | OH | USA | Posted: 7:04 AM on 08.04.08 |
->> Wow, I just got in one quote from United Rentals on renting a 120FT Telescopic Articulating Lift. A one day rental is, drum roll please... $1515!!!!!! Who new they where that expensive to rent! Maybe a turbo prop helicopter isn't so expensive after all! I will keep you posted.
Sam |
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Jeff Frings, Photographer
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Milwaukee | WI | USA | Posted: 7:46 AM on 08.04.08 |
->> If you shoot from a helicopter with the door off make sure you are using a harness similar to a climbing harness, not just relying on a standard seat belt buckle. If you do have to use the standard seat belt buckle and you decide to use gaffers tape to secure it, don't do multiple wraps around the buckle, just do one wrap and leave a tab of tape folded onto itself at the end to remove quickly in the event of an emergency. The gaffers tape isn't meant to hold you in, just to keep the buckle from opening.
As far as using your son for part of the crew, unless he's done this kind of thing before, I would recommend against it.
The safest way to do something like this, if you haven't done it before is to work with people who have.
For gear, just don't bring a bunch of extra stuff, settle on a wide angle, maybe a zoom and a tele, also maybe a zoom and don't plan on changing lenses, cards, or batteries in the air. Keep all straps around your neck, after you've harnessed yourself in, or secured inside the helicopter. |
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Walter Calahan, Photographer
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Westminster | MD | USA | Posted: 8:36 AM on 08.04.08 |
->> "renting a 120FT Telescopic Articulating Lift" = $1515
It is much safer. |
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Anthony Smith, Photographer
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Ocala | FL | USA | Posted: 9:38 AM on 08.04.08 |
| ->> Sam, have you thought about getting your own aerial photog equipment? I know a guy from my area that manufactures kits for exactly what you need. They can be handheld up to 25 ft high, or mounted to your vehicle with a 50 ft telescoping mast. Check out http://www.elevatedphoto.com |
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Walter Calahan, Photographer
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Westminster | MD | USA | Posted: 9:55 AM on 08.04.08 |
->> "They can be handheld up to 25 ft high, or mounted to your vehicle with a 50 ft telescoping mast."
And the price it right too:
21 foot portable handheld telescoping mast.............................$1,470.00 (plus actual cost of camera of your choice - no mark up)
50 foot telescoping mast
With all standard equipment listed on the products page.........$ 9,647.00
With vehicle/trailer mount .........................................................$10,434.00
With tripod (includes 3 guy lines and picket assembly)............$11,407.00
I don't know why I've lived so long without one! Grin. |
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Bob Nichols, Photographer
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Tipton | IN | USA | Posted: 10:02 AM on 08.04.08 |
->> Why not check with a local fire department? They may have a snorkel or aerial platform that they would use to lift you up for a picture. You are looking at 30-60 minutes use and don't need it for a full day. This sounds like a big event for your community.
Local high school + local fire department = community service. |
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Doug Murray, Photographer
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West Palm Beach | FL | USA | Posted: 1:43 PM on 08.04.08 |
->> Another source for "getting up there" would be a electric utility bucket truck such as this one used for Transmission lines.
http://www.altec.com/ealtec/SilverStream/Pages/equip_profile.html?MODEL=HiL...
This one has room for two, typically can be operated from within the bucket and on the ground, and goes up to 125'
You could contact your local power company to see if they would help out, if not search electrical contractors that work with the power companies (Utilix, Mastec, etc) or tree companies such as Asplundh.
Like Bob Nichols said it never hurts to try the community service angle.
If you go this route make sure they strap you in with either a belt or full harness. |
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William Maner, Photographer
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Biloxi | MS | USA | Posted: 2:03 PM on 08.04.08 |
->> Doug Murray..
You and Bob Nichols make a good point about the community service angle. Undoubtedly there's some kid on the football team who has a dad or an uncle or someone in some sort of construction/contracting business who might have access to a boom truck..
Many years ago when I was working for a small community weekly newspaper, I got a call to come take some photos of event at a local Catholic elementary school. All the kids were going to line up in a tribute formation.. We were going to have to take a photo from an elevated position..
One of the church parishioners was the owner of a tree pruning/removal business.. He provided a company bucket truck for me to take the photos.
I know my example might be small scale compared to what Sam is being asked to do, but it was typical of what can happen if folks ask around for help. |
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Juerg Schreiter, Photographer
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Fort Lauderdale | FL | USA | Posted: 5:09 PM on 08.04.08 |
->> ->> Sam,
c'mon.. you regret it forever if you don't go for the chopper. You can probably rent an R44 for 450-500 buck for an hour. It's a ton of fun, I've shot boat racing for 2 years most of the time from R44s or Jet Rangers and a bunch of other choppers. The R44 is ideal, it's as fast as a Jet Ranger (in your case that's not an issue) but way more maneuverable.
Your problem will be solid communications... forget about anything not going through your headset. For Safety purposes get the lightest sailing Harness (West Marine or so). Have fun ! |
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Guy Rhodes, Photographer
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East Chicago | IN | USA | Posted: 5:42 PM on 08.04.08 |
->> Another vote for the boom lift. It's like being in a helicopter that YOU get to precisely control! They're very straightforward and easy to operate. Provided that winds are clam, you'll have a very stable platform to shoot from.
You mention "stadium lights" so I'm assuming this will be a night game with kickoff at dusk. Do you have a fast lens and camera capable of shooting at a high enough ISO / shutter speed to overcome the helicopter vibration while still maintaining a good exposure?
Weather is another factor that might snuff out a helicopter shot. If its raining, the helicopter might be grounded (you miss the historic shot because, provided there is no lightning, the game will likely go on). If there's no lightning, however, you could still go up in your boom lift and get the shot even in the rain.
Try and keep your boom lift tires on concrete if you can. I almost got a 30,000 pound lift stuck in grass that seemed very solid otherwise. We eventually got the lift free, but seeing how easily it dug into the soft ground was enough for me to find a place to park it on solid ground for our shoot. All I needed was a tire sinking into the ground while the lift was up and arm'ed out at 80 feet.
Lastly, Bob's fire truck suggestion is brilliant. More than one fire department near me has always been very willing to help out with shoots, especially when schools are involved. |
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Jim Pierce, Photographer
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Waltham | MA | usa | Posted: 6:27 PM on 08.04.08 |
->> Sam,
Have you looked into someone who uses a remote control helicopter with a camera? In my area I have a husband and wife team that does just this. She is a photographer and he is an expert RC flyer. This might be something you want too look into as I am sure it is much less costly.
Just another option that has not been mentioned.
Jim |
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Allen Hubbard, Photographer
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Spokane | WA | USA | Posted: 8:30 PM on 08.04.08 |
->> I have shot from a helo before and it can be very fun but also dangerous. As stated before make sure you are in a secure harness and your equipment is well secured.
There is allot of vibration just from the bird and weather conditions can add to it.
You will need to be capable of fast shutter speeds to get a sharp image, so being it sounds like this is a night (or evening) shoot since you mentioned the lights make sure your equipment is capable or you are wasting allot of money.
It's not nearly as fun but I agree that the boom truck, Fire truck or other mechanical lift sounds much more efficient for this job.
Take the community service approach, offer them a 16x20 of the shot in exchange, and even a credit to them in the corner. If it is a private company that is great advertising for them.
Good Luck |
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Steve Ueckert, Photographer
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Houston | TX | USA | Posted: 8:58 PM on 08.04.08 |
->> Having just covered a crane collapse, I don't know that I would want to be 12 stories in the air in a scissor lift.
http://www.chron.com/news/photogallery/HOUSTON_CRANE_COLLAPES.html
I also know you couldn't pay me enough to ever get into another Robinson R-22. The R-22 is underpowered with just the pilot and forget hovering, it won't happen.
The Robinson R-44 is a bit more reasonable, but I still wouldn't consider hovering in one.
If the sport's booster is serious about the aerial, get a quote for one hour in a Jet Ranger and see if he is still serious.
Use a hands free ear & mouth piece for your cell phone and handle the communications yourself. It would be a good idea to have someone else on the ground to coordinate the run out of the footballers.
Also, while in the chopper, shoot nonstop. Everything out the window is potential stock images. From the moment the chopper departs terra firma until it returns, be on the ragged edge of hitting your camera's buffer. Bring something wide but no wider than a 28mm on a full frame camera or else you will get rotors in the shot or the ground details will diminish. The 28 - 105mm zoom would be a good choice, but also have the 70 - 200mm zoom as well.
The multi-point OSHA harness is a must, do not just rely on a seat belt, but it should be secured to a seat belt. With the harness you can move about, even hang out a bit. Tether your cameras to the seat belts as well.
--Steve |
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Juerg Schreiter, Photographer
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Fort Lauderdale | FL | USA | Posted: 12:50 AM on 08.05.08 |
->> Steve,
with all due respect....
"The Robinson R-44 is a bit more reasonable, but I still wouldn't consider hovering in one"
that is just simply a totally false statement !
J |
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Denny Medley, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Kansas City | MO | USA | Posted: 8:46 AM on 08.05.08 |
->> Sam,
I do quite a bit of aerial photography, and have rented helos in the past, but have you considered a fixed-wing plane, such as a Cessna 172? Depending on the size of your municipality, local air traffic, and the tower that controls the airspace over your stadium, you would probably be able to fly low enough over the stadium to get very good shots, say with an 80-200. Very little of my aerial work actually requires the low-altitude capabilities of a helo, and can be accomplished with the fixed wing Cessna. Most have a large window that has a set screw that can be removed, allowing the window to swing up under the wing while you're shooting, so that's not an issue. Something to consider, and much safer than a helo, as well as (generally) much less expensive on a per-hour basis.
Just a thought - no, it's not as exciting as a helo, but can get the job done nearly as well in most situations. |
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Walter Calahan, Photographer
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Westminster | MD | USA | Posted: 9:19 AM on 08.05.08 |
->> Denny
A fixed wing aircraft is better than a helicopter for price and safety if one is simply trying to record the landscape.
But Sam wants to catch the team running out onto the field. Coordinating the airplane with the team running is much harder then shooting from a helicopter, or a tall structure.
Me, I've used scissor lifts on football fields (not a 200' version) with great success. You must make sure that the ground underneath the lift is secure. I prefer having the lift driven onto a set of 4x8' plywood panels, and then anchored with guides, and outriggers. What's nice about a lift is you can place it near the goal post and frame the scene through the uprights. You can't do that with a helicopter. Then the view of the images knows instantly that this is a football field (unless they've never seen American Football).
But what do I know? |
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Steve Ueckert, Photographer
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Houston | TX | USA | Posted: 9:35 AM on 08.05.08 |
->> J-
Which part of my statement:
"The Robinson R-44 is a bit more reasonable, but I still wouldn't consider hovering in one"
as you reply:
"that is just simply a totally false statement !"
is false?
From my personal experience, I do consider the R-44 a better aerial platform than the R-22, but I do not consider it in the same class as a Jet Ranger.
Likewise, from MY personal experience, I still wouldn't consider hovering in the R-44.
I am not a licensed pilot and as such will not attempt to discuss the various manouvers or limits of any aircraft. I have numerous hours of shooting from numerous types of aircraft, including both the Robinson R-22 and R-44, and several others including various models of Bell turbine powered aircraft.
I stand by my statement based on my personal experiences. Your experiences may differ from mine.
This is all I have to say on this issue.
Have a nice day.
--Steve Ueckert
Houston, Texas |
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Bill Ross, Photographer
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Colorado Springs | CO | USA | Posted: 10:35 AM on 08.05.08 |
->> Have you thought of doing the job using remotes? I mean, I've seen some pretty good aerial stuff done with Remote Controlled Helicopters. Camera, PW's.... Fairly safe. Need a big RC Helicopter but I bet there are some real good RC Pilots where you are.
Just a suggestion. |
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Mike Isler, Photographer
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New York | NY | US | Posted: 10:37 AM on 08.05.08 |
->> As for Steve's comment, "The multi-point OSHA harness is a must, do not just rely on a seat belt, but it should be secured to a seat belt."
I agree completely, and the harnesses that we use ( http://www.yatesgear.com/rescue/roperescue/harnesses/index.htm ) were recommended to me by the the leader of the local Sheriff's Office Search And Rescue team. I also would NOT anchor the harness to the seatbelt, but rather to multiple secure points on the interior. Seat belt mount points work very well for this purpose. Yates (the harness company linked above) makes adjustable tethers that work very well. At the minimum, we use two tethers for the photographer... one at the waist, and one between shoulders (dorsal) to control the forward lean.
I won't do door-off work without a harness, personally. With a seatbelt, the range of movement is very limited... and loosening the seatbelt creates an unsafe situation.
As for an R-44 hovering... well, I'm not totally comfortable coming to an OGE hover at low altitude in one, and usually the pilot isn't either. But, doing 20kt slow flight can usually net you the result needed, and that is much safer. If I'm in a helicopter operating below the height/velocity curve, I would much rather be in a turbine ship. JetRangers are great, but don't have a lot of headroom... LongRangers have a bit more headroom and are also more stable / less vibration due to the dampening system securing the engine, and Noda Matic transmission.
Whatever you do, be safe! |
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Debra L Rothenberg, Photographer
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New York | NY | USA | Posted: 11:37 AM on 08.05.08 |
->> my husband flies the Robinson R22 and 44 and hovers in both
he also flies the Cessna 182. We have used all 3 for aerials. The R22, however, only holds 2 people |
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Debra L Rothenberg, Photographer
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New York | NY | USA | Posted: 11:39 AM on 08.05.08 |
| ->> PS-2 years ago a photo friend needed a photo of a new stadium at a college in upstate NY. They used the Cessna since he was not yet a helicopter pilot and the photos were excellent. So as Denny mentioned, you may want to look in to the plane-it's also a lot less expensive |
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Bill Miller, Photographer
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Thousand Palms | CA | USA | Posted: 11:43 AM on 08.05.08 |
->> Sam you said "The president thought an aerial shot of the team running out on to the field the first time would be a great shot and a wonderful money maker for me. "
The real question is - 'Is the booster club going to pay for the equipment to get the shoot? If they are not, then will you be able to sell enough prints to cover the cost and make a profit?'
Now the option if the school is really supported by the community, you have 2 options one already mentioned is the fire department if they have a ladder truck that will get you 100' in the air. Option #2 the local police or sheriff's Chopper. That is probably a jet ranger. |
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Vincent Laforet, Photographer
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New York | NY | USA | Posted: 12:25 PM on 08.05.08 |
| ->> Debra - you can hover in Robinson 22 or 44 - and I've done it - I just wouldn't recommend it to others... especially when the chopper is weighed down w/ photographer and camera gear... |
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Peter Wine, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Dayton | OH | USA | Posted: 12:29 PM on 08.05.08 |
->> I can't say I've read all of the posts, but I did check a bit before posting...
Have you thought about renting a hot air balloon instead of a helo or fixed wing?
I agree that more height than a lift might be a good thing, so I'd be at least checking with someone for pricing.
I'm sure it would be less than a helo, and probably more stable as well. You would be moving a lot slower (and slightly less controlled) than a helo, so there are factors (like wires, etc.) to consider.
Just my 2 cents. |
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Wally Nell, Photographer
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CAIRO | EG | EGYPT | Posted: 12:44 PM on 08.05.08 |
->> I agree with what Vince said, shortest lens 85mm, but 70-200 is probably your best bet. And if you have IS, that would help you immensely with vibration issues. As others have said, make sure you are well strapped in, and make sure you have no loose equipment anywhere that can shift or fall. I would use 2 camera bodies with different lenses, with your largest CF cards you have in order to not have to change cards. Make sure your batteries are charged up. You do not want to have to load batteries when things can go flying out the door. Have all your cameras ready to go, correct settings, correct f-stops, correct shutter speeds, correct white balance, nothing loose; BEFORE you take off.
I think you will have a better chance of making good images if you use a helo. If you are on a lift or ladder, it would be hard to move it around if you see the angle not really working for you. Once you are in the helo, you might be able to see better angles to shoot from and be able to communicate to your pilot.
Go for the helo, just be prepared. |
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Walter Calahan, Photographer
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Richard Uhlhorn, Photographer
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Chelan Falls | WA | USA | Posted: 1:46 PM on 08.05.08 |
->> In this neck of the woods, a helicopter capable of hovering and not shaking to death is about $550 to $600 an hour. Beats the quote you had on the lift. I do like the community to community idea of having the fire department come in. Especially if it is a volunteer department. They are always looking for good press.
For me... the helicopter is the best bet, but can and will the booster club pay for it. Your statement that it would be a good money maker for you begs the question... how?
Is the booster club expecting you to foot the bill and sell prints. Don't think you'll cover the nut on that one unless you get firm and maybe prepaid orders from every parent and fan.
Good luck
Rich |
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Tony Donaldson, Photographer
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Los Angeles | CA | USA | Posted: 3:21 PM on 08.05.08 |
| ->> I just flew in an R22 over the X Games. Pilot was VERY experienced, I wasn't concerned at all. I was shooting an overview, so a 17-35 was perfect. |
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Louis Lopez, Photographer
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Fontana | CA | USA | Posted: 3:56 PM on 08.05.08 |
->> Sam,
Have the AD check with the local city utility/power company. I shot the class photo for a school from overhead in a boom from the city power company boom truck, it was no charge as the school and city help each other out.
I wore the safety harness, and it was quite high up as well, 120' I believe was the max height on the rig I was up in.. you will be able to have yourself placed pretty much where you like for the correct angle. I had the city operator at the controls. and was in walkie talkie communication for placement. |
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Sam Carleton, Photographer
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Mason | OH | USA | Posted: 10:28 PM on 08.05.08 |
->> For the record, I will be covering any costs. The idea is that I will recoup the cost through sales. I did come up with one great idea, based on the fact that I am going to be photographing all the high school games...
At the end of the year, offer a 20x30 poster with the aerial shot as the background and 3 or 4 5x7 size actions shots of a kid. I am thinking I could offer it for $300~$500 each, framed. Considering the area I am in, I believe they would sell pretty well, assuming I had a good shot!
I am going to look into the whole community service angle and see what equipment I can come up with for free.
Thank you all for your advise, please keep it coming! |
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Andrew Hreha, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Ventura | CA | USA | Posted: 11:09 PM on 08.05.08 |
->> I did some aerial shots a few weeks back in an Ultralight. I'm not sure if there are any in your area, but I was able to find a club out here that took me up for 30 minutes for about $70. It was definitely a nerve wracking experience, but I got some great shots.
There aren't any windows so you don't need to worry about being restricted. Plus they can fly at very low altitudes. I used a 17-55mm on a D3.
If you go this route, just make sure to tie your camera strap around something. |
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Mark Davis, Photographer
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Decatur | AL | USA | Posted: 11:11 PM on 08.05.08 |
->> That's an expensive idea for a high school sports gig with hopes of recouping the fee. Its going to take lots of sales to break even with a chopper rental. Last chopper I rented a few months back ran $1,250.00 for about 1.5 hours. I had a corporate client footing the bill though.
Helicopters are different to shoot from than an airplane. Chopper at low, low angle 50 mm or 105 mm max. Hovering can be dangerous with kids below. Trust your pilot!
Based on my experience, a jig lift or boom truck, using a wide angle lens, would be much better as your idea explains, of course that's not as exciting and fun as the chopper. Chances are another parent works for the local rental company, or the rental place would donate the lift for a picture.
Mark Davis
CommercialIndustrialPhotographer.com |
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Ken Charnock, Photographer
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Mooresville | NC | United States | Posted: 11:18 PM on 08.05.08 |
->> Sam-
I did this last year for my local HS:
- found a pilot (Cessna) in the community - cost $0 dollars
- I had the local fire department lift me during the "1st game" - cost $0 dollars
- I shoot from a lift from the schools maint. department - cost $0 dollars
Got the shot(s) - $ PRICELESS
Good luck - Be SAFE
Ken |
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Mike Ullery, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Piqua | OH | USA | Posted: 11:48 PM on 08.05.08 |
->> Sam,
For the headaches involved in securing a lift, I would opt for the aerial shot personally. First of all, an airplane is going to have less vibration that a helicopter. (Be sure to avoid leaning on the airframe while shooting from either). In spite of a lot of misgivings voiced by others here, flying is relatively safe IF you have an experienced pilot. Do not just go for anyone who says that they are a pilot and will be happy to take you up. Check them out first. Having said that, I would bet that you can find a good pilot who owns or shares an airplane who will be willing to do the flying just to get the time or for cost of fuel. Check down at Lunkin Airport.
Whether you choose airplane or helicopter, if you are shooting anywhere near dusk, I would strongly recommend renting a gyro stablizer. You can check out Kenyon Laboratories as they rent a KS-6 for a week for about $300. I don't want to add to your costs but if this is a one-shot deal, the extra stablity is worth every penny. If you do that, have it shipped to you several days in advance and get used to it. Shooting with a gyro is a little different. The same advice would go for shooting from a lift. Anyone who thinks that a lift a a rock-solid platform at 100' is dreaming. The thing moves around up there. If you do use a lift, don't let anyone up there with you if you can avoid it. If they so much as shift their weight while you are shooting, the movement can cause blur.
I too would be hesitant to count on re-couping your expenses on this project. It is a gamble.
Also as for shooting from the R22, I've done it and never had an issue...hovering included. I wouldn't want to try to stick in a hover for minutes at a time but for several seconds here and there, it is fine. |
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Cameron Davidson, Photographer
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Alexandria | VA | USA | Posted: 5:36 AM on 08.06.08 |
->> Guys and Gals,
Hovering, unless into a 10 KT headwind is always a bad idea.
I wrote about "Dead Mans Curve" in the First Time aerials article on SS.
Basically, at 300 feet AGL, in a hover, you loose your ability to recover into a full auto-rotation. Depending upon the weight, type of aircraft and heat/humidity, you need more airspeed or altitude.
For this shoot, I would strong suggest an 80 foot snorkel lift. Scizzor lifts rarely go higher than 45 or 60 feet. They are unstable higher than that.
A snorkel lift at 80 feet will give you the aerial perspective with enough intimacy to the subject.
The suggestion to use a local firehouse hook and ladder is a good idea for a small community. Just remember, if they need it, the shoot is gone.
Using a fixed-wing aircraft like the 172 is not a good idea, as pointed out, your at a low-altitude with a required altitude of 500 feet above building and people. That will nork work for this shot. When I have done similar shoot to this, I flew in a Hughes 500 (turbine), pre-flighted the shoot and emergency landing spots, had constant contact with the subject on the ground and kept the shoot time to a just a few minutes.
A R-22 is underpowered for this type of shoot. An R-44 is ok, but there is a warning out from Robinson about cross-control of the aircraft for aerial photography, I'm afraid this type of shoot would require significant "crabbing" of the aircraft to get you into position, the same position that Robinson issued a warning about tail rotor failure.
Really, for this shoot, an eighty-foot snorkel lift is what you need. The risk to to people below in an under-powered (cheaper) gasoline helicopter is not worth it.
Best of luck to you. |
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Walter Calahan, Photographer
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Sean Stevens, Photographer
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San Antonio | TX | USA | Posted: 11:03 AM on 08.06.08 |
->> If you go the local FD ladder/snorkel route, you might want to test your comfort level first. Taking a photo from the tip of a free-standing 75' ladder bouncing around under your movements, let alone a bit of a breeze, can be a bit unnerving your first time.
http://picasaweb.google.com/sean.hotshot/Fire/photo#4982024826318028818
Regards,
Sean |
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