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LOOSING YOUR NEWS JOB AND OTHERS SHOOTING FOR 1/2 THEIR FEES
Manuello Paganelli, Photographer
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Los Angeles | CA | USA | Posted: 1:28 PM on 06.17.08 |
->> I want to launch a few comments from this very sad and disturbing. article
http://www.ajc.com/business/content/printedition/2008/06/17/upfront.html
READ this article. A photographer had to lower his client fees to 1/2. Why?
Another photographer may do it for 1/4. And WHY NOT??
When a precedent is set is also cemented in the minds of that client and from there on another clients will follow suit. So all the things we worked for comes crashing down.
It will go like this,
p.r./ad agency "Gee time are tough and I still want to get that new Carrera Porshe I told you about it last yr. Not only are we going to get pay upfront from Coca Cola but we will have to raise our fees. I am sure they will understand. And Billy, call that photographer that we used last year...what is his name..You know the one who did the shoot for 1/2 his fees.
Tell him that we love his work but that this time he has to give us a better price than last yr. See if he can do it for a 1/4. I am pretty sure that he will say yes. Hey gotta dash will be back in 3 hrs. Gotta test drive the new Porshe."
Folks I dont lower my fees and FOR SURE I never give discount either. Why SHOULD YOU?
When was the last time you went to the dentist and said, "Hey I got 3 tooth with cavities and I would like for you to do all of them. Now, hear me out, I need for you to give me a discount or I will go to another dentist."
Also folks do you think next time you all go to a restaurant with a few of your friends, 3-10 , since you are bringing so many customers, the meals price be lowered at all?
He Hee He He!! Let me laugh hard until I pass out or a fart comes out.
Just say NOOOOOOOO!! And stand your ground. If the client loves your work they will call you and they will pay for it. YOu all keep thinking TOO LITTLE IN HERE. Stop fooling yourselves and kick your ASS and move forward. Change tactics, your way of doing BIZ or clients.
TIme for a real tune up and fresh oil. Too many of you in here lack self steam. Either you got game and can make it or step aside and try something else just let the mighty train pass on. Why drag the rest with your poor BIZ sense and daily lack of motivation.
How many of you come in here "CRYING" instead of making changes?
Times are tough? HELL YES.
Yet, NO NEED TO LOWER YOUR PRICES or give discounts or SHOOT FOR FREE!! Your clients know more than you the CODB so dont fool yourself. They even made it clear on the Atlanta Journal yet the photographer lowered his prices.
Pretty sad and hell now every one in Atlanta will call this shooter for 1/2 his fees. Is as bad as having a sign on the biggest building in town, “fotographers do it for free.”
Something else, layoff and more layoff!!
I come from a newspaper background so I understand. Only worked for around 1.5 yrs. That was enough for me to see that it was not the right thing for me. The thrill of the chase and those monthly contest were fun but it wasn’t going to get me a home, a nice car a better life. I also thought, “gosh if I leave this place or one day retire from here I am not going to own any of the ©. And for sure wont be able to sell it as stock. And what if I retire with a pension plan then suddenly my dear and solid newspaper goes out of business.”
All of you shooting for newspapers better get a PLAN B and make sure that is a good one. Here today and layoff tomorrow. Just like that or ike flicking a fancy cigarette lighter. Then you will really see who your friends from that paper really are. Or how much they really “LOVE YOU.”
All those signs have been there for yrs. Some took heed of that and made changes. Most of you don’t get it and are still “SAFETY” sailing into darkness with just a matter of time before the iceberg shows his face. And when it comes, unless you are prepared, the blow will be violent, unnerving and it will leave you in the verge of jumping off a cliff. Are you ready for that and strong?
When I left my newspaper in Chattanooga, Tenn I went to work for AFP in wash DC. Only stayed for 6 months or so. At that moment I felt that it was the worse place anybody could have work for. From there I went solo and thought, “I will get plenty of work with my talent. I am the greatest photographer so getting clients wont be a problem at all.”
Very soon I was as speechless and confused as all the folks who saw Big Brown's last-place finish in the Belmont Stakes. So during four or six months, before USA Today & the Wash Post rescued me, getting up in the morning wasn’t fun, and going to bed was just as tough for my tears would flow until sleep would knock me out but even on my dreams I was running scare, and on my neck a camera with not film. And every night depression, anxiety and loneliness would embraced me and fighting them off was a challenge.
There were days were I would go to a happy hour place just to eat for free. Sometime I didn’t even have $$ for a drink so I would order a glass of water then I would added a lemon and one of those plastic stick/umbrellas so it would look like a cool drink then I would made my way to the food table. When you are a survival you learn a few things. One of them was, “don’t frequent the same bar too often” so I would have a list of places to go. Today here and tomorrow there and so on. So yes I do understand what many newspapers photographers are feeling. But keep in mind that there is hope but only ME, YOU, US can make those changes.
Is not easy, HELL LIFE AINT EASY, but is within our reach. Is just a matter of pushing and lifting your head without given up. Only LOOSERS GIVE UP and I don’t think you folks are loosers.
Many of you come in here as if this is a bloody country club or a free comedy night. But it aint funny out there and for sure not a damn country club.
So used your head for there is something in there, plan and make choices about your future and your shooting style and would be clients.
A couple yrs ago one of the elite magazine’s DofP phoned me. I have been working for them since the 90’s. A the end of our conversation I wrote and printed what I was told for when it comes to money “as photographers” we rarely hear this so here I am sharing it with you,
“Manuello you are the most expensive photographer we work with. We love your work and we will keep using you.”
Come on folks, surely you can do it too. KEEP ON SHOOTING AND STANDING UP FOR YOURSELVES!
More 2 come
Pag
http://www.ManuelloPaganelli.com |
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Michael Fischer, Photographer
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Spencer | Ia | USA | Posted: 2:46 PM on 06.17.08 |
->> What Manuello says is totally TRUE.
I've been in business forEVER. I've had more SH*T thrown at me then you can poosibly imagine "Your price is too high" will be tatooed on my gravestone. And yet I do all the things Manuello talks about. My home is paid for etc etc.
Here's a response when they want to have you lower your price:
"NO".
and when that doesn't work, try this:
"You know, there will always be someone cheaper. Not only in my business , but in YOUR business, too, correct?"
Wait for their response, it will be "YES".
"One thing I've learned in business is that 80% of my problems come from 20% of my customers, and do you know what the 20% have in common? They are almost always the lowest profit ones. They don't have it together and eventually that costs not only them, but you as well. Hassles, headaches and BS. Is that what you want?"
Then shut up and wait for their response.
LISTEN To what they say. Address their needs. Do not cut your price. If they say how so and so can do it cheaper - just tell them about the old saw that goes: "You want fresh oats you pay one price, you want them after they've been through the horse once, they will no doubt be cheaper."
"I'm focused on you and your needs. I have a long history of being the most cost effective photographer - that means you'll get the biggest bang for your buck with me. Are we good on this?"
(You just asked them for the sale..)
Here's the thing: The customer who is only interested in price is not your customer: He or she is a price WHORE.
Let em go.
The ones that want to have the best value, that value the relationship that you will have are the ones you want.
Pricing is a whole different thread. This is short response because I'm swamped today. But trust me, Manuello is correct. The only reason there is such a thing as a starving artist is because they choose to be so.
Choose to be profitable. It's not easy, but it IS that simple.
Michael |
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Delane B. Rouse, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Washington | DC | US | Posted: 2:54 PM on 06.17.08 |
->> Last week I saw a story about a restaurant where, during these times of increasing prices, they actually negotiate with the customers and allow you to make an offer on your meal of choice.
Yep, the burger platter is listed at $8.99 but you can walk in and offer $5...you get a a smaller burger and less fries but you get what you paid for. |
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Ian L. Sitren, Photographer
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Palm Springs | CA | USA | Posted: 3:00 PM on 06.17.08 |
->> I don't recall if this has been posted in SportShooter thread but it is worthy of being posted again if it has.
On YouTube from the 1969 movie Putney Swope.
http://tinyurl.com/65mmlw
It is a must watch and only one minute long. |
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Walter Calahan, Photographer
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Westminster | MD | USA | Posted: 3:11 PM on 06.17.08 |
->> Ian
Brilliant!
So true.
Thanks |
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Svein Ove Ekornesvaag, Photographer
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Aalesund | Møre og Romsdal | Norway | Posted: 3:51 PM on 06.17.08 |
->> Like this is something special for photographers? I hear this every day at work. Every business wich sells products always have customers wich says that "the store next door sells this product cheaper than you" and so on.
Photographers asking for lower price on their gear is not any better than people asking for lower prices on the photographers pictures.
So Manuello, do you check the prices before you buy a new lens? Or do you buy it at much higher price at your local store? Do you buy a new car without trying to get it cheaper or with some extra accessories?
Beeing pissed off because someone asks for discount is wasted energy. Whatever rates you charger there will always be someone cheaper. |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 4:02 PM on 06.17.08 |
| ->> I usually don't respond to these threads since I don't freelance anymore (that may change soon but that's another story) first I just wanted to say to Manuello, I understand your posts and totally enjoy them but one thing I think you have to realize if most of us in the newspaper business felt the way you do there WOULDN'T be any news photographers at papers. yeah we'd all love to own the copyright to all our photos but that's just not how it is, and we sure would love to get paid more...but no one ever told me I would get rich and famous from doing something I love. and yeah I'm sure, since most papers aren't family owned anymore, this will all come back to bite me in the ass down the road, BUT, those of us who do this, do it for a reason. we have a passion for this particular type of work. just as you are passionate about the many things you speak to I think you should acknowledge those of us who continue to stick it out and watch as things seemingly get worse are often "the glass is half full" kind of people. eternal optimists. hoping someday we will be paid our worth. sure it may not happen but I think in all honesty looking back over the last 35 years I can truly say I feel very blessed to have had a job which I actually enjoyed doing every single day. and I still do. I can safely say I bet I've met maybe 10 people in my entire life that truly liked going to work...and most of them were photojournalists. I'm certainly not going into the whole "noble bul*s$*t" thing but although we might not end up on the french riviera or a nice retirement home beachfront in bermuda.....I can safely say I'll be happy for having been a small time photojournalist and being a part of this very tight community. |
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Kohl Threlkeld, Student/Intern
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Monroe | MI | USA | Posted: 4:50 PM on 06.17.08 |
->> Manuello,
I understand your point and it is very valid. But, as far as Chris Stanford goes i dont believe he has cut his client fees completely in half for good like you are suggesting. There are probably many circumstances for why he did this job for less than the year before, and it might not be because he isnt standing up for himself. It could be the client is facing tough times and just required a less extensive shoot this year.
Stanford is an amazing photographer and a great person and it is sad that this is happening to our industry. I have spent some time with Chris and i will tell you he is the FIRST person to turn down a job if it doesn't pay enough. He has preached that from the first day i met him. In fact his business ethics are what has driven him to the success he has now. ( as well as his talent) So, he might not be the best example to use to make your point.
Kohl |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 7:24 PM on 06.17.08 |
| ->> Ian, AWESOME! |
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Manuello Paganelli, Photographer
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Los Angeles | CA | USA | Posted: 8:44 PM on 06.17.08 |
->> Liddy I totally agree with you and that is why i said that FOR ME continuing to work in a newspaper wasnt the best thing.
Still, I loved the passion and the thrill of running around and doing a gig here and then shooting @ two other places, back to the lab and with eagerness see the results. YOu had worked 35 yrs and I admired and respect that but a fact is that those great times and security are pretty much gone specially in smaller market newspapers. But how many can actually make it to the big league and how many opening comes up? So I want people to see that there are other attainable options out there and those eyes need to be open and those eggs laid in other baskets. Nobody in the photo business works as hard as photojournalist and those are the heroes. I wrote on that not long ago. Sadly, whoever shoots the beautiful face of the present or up & coming movie stars gets all the kudos, the top adv jobs and is considered the next Irvin Penn. I am totally happy that you are able to say all of those memorable things concerning all your working yrs but again many cant say that or wont be doing it for much longer. So a plan B should be in in the works so when the boat sink the lifesaver is on.
Kohl Threlkeld, none of my writing was aimed at Standord. IT could have been anyone else. The story, with his name, was published in the ATlanta Journal for all to see. You are right, he may have his reasons as to why he did it. I even asked why? I also respect amd admire his openness and revelation.
At the end when the article was printed and enroute with the paperboy all those valid reasons are not mentioned so we only hear that 1/2 his fees were cut off and that is better to get 1/2 payment than none.
We all have been told that Jesus walked on water. And nothing else. Another thing is to hear that he walked on water but the lake was frozen. Or that he walked on water but he was aided by cables attached to his waist. Only then can we really understand how and why he did it.
That said, I bet NONE OF THOSE ADV CLIENTS are telling those big corporations things like, "Hey that ad that we did for you last year for 2M, now we will do it this year for only 1M." NOPE, what they are saying is 'PAYS US UP FRONT."
In this article clients will only be reading that a photographer, whom they may have work with or wish to work with, has lowered his rates. Also in their heads they will think that if it was done then they will ask other photographers to do it too. The ramifications will not be great at all. Man, it was in the Journal so is out. I remembered when mags started sending contracts. After a while it seems that they all came from the same lawyer's office. Those clients read and are well inform. A lot more than us photographers.
The economic is down yet all those airlines are finding ways to be profitable and stay in business without lowering their rates. People still buy those bimmers and Mercedes for the same prize. Food, gas, electricity all goes up except our rates.
More 2 come
Pag
http://www.ManuelloPaganelli.com |
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Mark Peters, Photographer
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Highland | IL | USA | Posted: 1:15 AM on 06.18.08 |
->> Airlines - profitable? Are these the same seven largest carriers that posted a collective 1.3 BILLION dollar loss in Q1 2008 (on top of a Q4 07 loss). Or is it Aloha or ATA?
Or the recent Reuters' headline - "European May car sales drop on fuel, credit woes".
As for food, gas and electricity rates rising - those are generally considered to be necessities. Items with little in the way of practical substitutes. Though people will actively seek to reduce their usage, or particularly in the case of food - look for less expensive options. Isn't this what is happening in photography - customers cutting back on their budgets and/or seeking less expensive alternatives?
To answer the question about the dentist - When was the last time I asked for a discount? Every time I've gone in for the past couple of decades as I've always been in a PPO where the usual and customary rate is negotiated down. One of my providers two years ago took a 20% hit in his usual and customary rates (which in and of themselves are substantial discounts), just to remain in network.
It isn't just photographers - it's everywhere. |
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Manuello Paganelli, Photographer
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Los Angeles | CA | USA | Posted: 10:50 AM on 06.18.08 |
->> Mark I am packing to fly away so I will be brief. Yes you are right airlines are not making a profit. I meant to write that
they are changing their ways to stay in business yet they are not LOWERING THEIR FEES.
Same with cars, less folks maybe buying them but those prices are still up. Yet what the auto industry is doing is adding incentives and other goodies. A company that was giving 50,000 miles for 5 yrs now may give them 100,000 for ten yrs. I am sure there are trying plenty of other ways too.
BTW, dont take all my writing at face value when it comes to examples. All biz are different but you can always draw a similarity even if is small one.
My point is that we dont need to lower our rates or give discounts. We still can offer ways to the client to lower the bills. In some of my shoots I have use 3 or 4 paying assistants but now when we worked out the numbers and they have less of a budget it goes towards my expenses. So instead of using 3 paying assistants I would only use two and let an intern come in for very low fees or free. All depends of the need of the intern and on that I talked plenty before.
There are also moments when I will save $$ to the client by staying in the same room with my assistant or staying at mor affordable hotels. Or by flying with my main assistant instead of two and hiring the other person at the other end. There have been time where I even had to fly alone. There are other ways to save $$ for the client yet your fees can still be the same. Eating at less costly restaurants?
Make not mistake I get plenty of calls from new clients that want me to shoot for ridiculous fees I am not use to. Last week this P.R. lady wanted me to shoot an hour away from my studio, a one day portrait to be used for promotion, pr, web etc.
I quoted her $4,500 then she phoned me saying thanks but not thanks and that she found someone that would do it for $1,200 Which is fine with but not the fact that this photographer is cutting his balls for this job and all those needed rights are a lot more than $1,200 But I knew she wasnt serious when she asked me, "how much you charge per hour."
I can go on on this but but now I lack the time. Also keep in mind that our troubles have been with us for yrs. Many photographers have been bad biz folks long before the economic got to the ground. YOu just hear more complains for they are really now feeling the heat but most of us are the ones to blame for not running the ship properly.
Also I wish that I could get discount fr4om my dentist here in LA. Again. that was just one example same with the restaurants if some of you dont get that point then you are missing a lot.
Dude gotta run
more 2 come
Pag
http://www.ManuelloPaganelli.com |
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Mark Peters, Photographer
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Highland | IL | USA | Posted: 1:06 PM on 06.18.08 |
->> I understand full well the point you are trying to make, but I think many of your examples fail to support it.
The airlines are indeed discounting - deeply discounting - below their total cost. However, their rates are still above marginal cost, which is why they are still operating. This is a very important and fundamental point. The airlines have been slashing prices and competing on the basis of fares since deregulation. The fact that they are not now raising rates in the face of being steamrolled with fuel costs is not an indication that one can stand their ground on rates and survive, but rather an indication that the failure of all of the substitute competitors to do so in lock step will doom the entity that attempts to raise prices to failure, as was demonstrated recently when a couple of majors attempted to raise prices.
Keeping rates frozen in the face of cheaper, acceptable (to the customer who is the only one that gets to decide what is acceptable) alternatives may work for some - those whose quality is valued by enough of their clientele willing to pay these rates to stay in business. However, for those that cannot locate such clients, then attempting to do so results in a loss of real income for them.
Even if every photog out there signed on to the "official, no discount, industry wide pricing plan", such pricing would result in less work in total when clients cut budgets - thus putting people out of work.
In your discourse above you noted that you used fewer assistants in the face of rising costs. If these assistants were willing to work for 1/3rd less, would you employ the same level as before? - since your total cost would be the same? Which raises the question, is it better that three people get to work for 2/3 of the prior rate, or only two at the full rate? Guess it depends if your are the first two or the third.
I simply think that this is a very complex issue and not resolved by blanket statements that one should not discount, etc. |
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Michael Fischer, Photographer
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Spencer | Ia | USA | Posted: 4:22 PM on 06.18.08 |
->> Mark,
Gotta disagree about airline pricing - while there are deals, the price of a average airline ticket is up - WAY up. What common sense couldn't do, jet fuel prices HAVE done to the airline industry.
But I digress.
Let's look at the strategy of cutting price for something that isn't a commodity - unless YOU - the producer - treat it as such.
That's the first thing - and it's important. "Yeah, I know we charge a little more than some, but here's why:
Reason A
Reason B
Reason C
You need to give them reasons that are important to them. And what are those reasons? When they contact you looking for a price quote, you need to ask. Of course, they will tell you "your best price."
"Fine", you say "do you mind if I ask you a few questions about the job so I can give you my best price?"
What you then do is ask questions that begin with the following words:
WHO
WHAT
WHERE
WHEN
WHY
HOW
How big? How soon do you need it? Where does it need to be shot? Who will be in it? What do you want it to show? What message are you trying to convey?
The possibilities are endless. And yet, this part, which, in the sales process is called Qualification, is the single most important part. Why? Because it allows you to 1) Determine what the actual need is 2) Determine the "hot buttons" for the client.
If they need it yesterday, then quoting $4200 with a 6 hour turnaround might make sense, might it not?
Good salespeople use this technique ALL THE TIME. It's not a trick, it's what professionals use to find out what the client wants besides your "Best price".
Many people think of guys in loud sports coats screaming at the top of their lungs when they think of sales. A professional is just the opposite. They can be social or not, but they have keen LISTENING skills.They are sensitive to the clients' wants, needs and desires. (Just like a photographer, actually) They know their product and they know how to ask for the sale. They know how to tie their offer to the client's need.
"But" you might say "that doesn't work for my clients". Bunk. It works for a lot of people.
Example: The last guy I talked to wanted $500 less for the image of our CEO.
"Well", you say," this IS your CEO. You can do it real basic, but is that what you really want?" Here's what I think could really make this assignment stand out - so that he looks like he's a CEO of a Fortune 100 company..."
It's at that point you start talking about the creative process and what YOU'LL do that is different - better - and meets the clients need.Keep asking questions. There's no such thing almost as too much information.
But, what about the price?? You're still TOO HIGH. For those of you convinced you have to cut your price, here's a option.
So here's what you do. build an extra 5-10% in to your pricing. Don't worry, you're going to use it in some way to give it back to them, but you need to be smart when you do it.
"You know, you mentioned you're down in Smithville. I have another assignment down in Jonesville which is next to it. If we could shoot it next week ( or whenever you know they need it shot) I could give you x% off since I'll be down there. Can we schedule it then?" Then SHUT UP and wait for the answer. I don't care if it takes an HOUR of silence. The first one who speaks - loses. You want to make sure it's them because that means they are buying from YOU!
The strategy here is
1) You're asking for the sale.
2) You've cut your price - or so they think. (What you've really done is raised the amount they should spend)
3) You've opened the door to build the relationship.
I can't stress enough that once in, you work hard to build the relationship. Find out as much as you can about them. Find out how you can make their life easier and better. Become their go to photographer/visual expert. Act as a advisor for them - a resource. Instead of transaction based, become relationship based. You'll be amazed how well it works. In my other business, I do this EVERY day. I've taught it. It WORKS. Eventually, you'll figure out you don't need to cut the price - but just to prove it to you, there's a way to do it. The reality is your asking the right questions, figuring out what they need (which nobody else did ) will make you the best value. The people who recognize that are the people you want for your client base.
And what about the guy who only wants a cheap price? Let them go to a competitor. Thank them for the opportunity. Put them on your mailing list.DON'T mess with PRICE WHORES. They will tie you up with problems and cost you money.
Price is ONLY a factor when the buyer has nothing else to base the decision on. When clients believe that they get more VALUE from you at your price, you'll be amazed how easy it is. Thats why Manuello can charge what he charges and the editor says he is the most expensive - and a good value. It's not about the dollars - it's what you get for the dollars. Produce kick ass images that the client WANTS and you'll be amazed how price isn't a factor. Manuello does it, ..do you think Joe McNally is giving it away?
VALUE. VALUE.VALUE. It's that simple. But it's hard WORK.
Write or email me with questions.
Recommended Reading: Tom Hopkins "How to Master the Art of Selling" |
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Mark Davis, Photographer
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Decatur | AL | USA | Posted: 4:49 PM on 06.18.08 |
->> Manuello,
Excellent post.
Its a shame some on SS will fail to see your insight and advice on the subject. |
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