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Free Images...Well what about unpaid internships?
Richard Denham, Photographer
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Toronto/Buffalo/Niagara | On | Canada | Posted: 8:32 AM on 05.30.08 |
->> OK, So it has been quite a while since I have posted anything on ss. Unfortunately I have concentrating on my wedding photography as it is a much more "lucrative" market where I live. anyways, I read Matt Browns article on 'giving away your images for free' and completely agree with 100%. I will freely admit that I have 'shot' for free, but never have I given away any of those images for free.
But here is my question/thought, Why is it that newspapers and other establishments think they can offer 'free or unpaid internships' and no one cares if someone takes the job. Personally I think that is a load of crap, how can a company not expect to pay a student intern, I mean they are students and they need to make some kind of income. They are most likely spending as much time as possible hustling their a$$ off trying to get the picture, and for what, a photo credit!
I understand that most of the people who offer up free images are weekend warriors. Joe Photog who wants to get his picture in SI, and will give it top them for free if he has too. They don't care, they have a second income as a teacher or engineer. I know, I am in that position, I am a weekend warrior, however I am bordering on finally leaving the 9-5. Anyways, as the old saying goes "it takes two to tango", and until both parties involved get things straight, I don;t think it's fair to put the blame solely on the shooter. Yes I know, papers, magazines, and whatever else are out there to make a profit, so why wouldn't they want to get something for free, but as long as they expect it for free, there will be people giving it to them for free.
Cheers, RD |
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William Jurasz, Photographer, Assistant
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Cedar Park | TX | USA | Posted: 8:49 AM on 05.30.08 |
| ->> Richard, as with most things, the fundamental reason why someone can "get away with something" is because someone else will let them. So they don't pay interns because interns are willing to work for free. |
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Bob Ford, Photographer
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Lehighton | Pa | USA | Posted: 9:01 AM on 05.30.08 |
->> Richard, the paper I work for usually offers only ONE internship each summer, and it's a paid one.
But I think you're misinformed if you think that people working unpaid interships are working for a "photo credit". I hear countless students saying that they've learned more at their internships than they did in classes.
Add to this the fact that many schools will give you credits for completing an intership. This could be worth $1000+.
With interships becoming a requirement for graduation at most colleges, and with newspapers tightening the financial belts, I think you're probably going to see more and more unpaid internships.
Like any other part of life, there is a huge difference with interships between different papers. Some see the intern as cheap or free labor that they can use and abuse, sending them out to cover menial assignments like headshots and check passings.
Others realize it's a learning experience for the student and will mentor and nuture the intern. |
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Richard Denham, Photographer
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Toronto/Buffalo/Niagara | On | Canada | Posted: 9:17 AM on 05.30.08 |
->> "So they don't pay interns because interns are willing to work for free."
That is why I said it takes two to tango, you cannot blame one without blaming the other.
"I hear countless students saying that they've learned more at their internships than they did in classes."
That's fine, and I agree with it, but what about the weekend warrior who wants to get into photography full time. He can;t work for a paper as am unpaid intern, so he shoots for free to get his name out there. Heck, do you know how many jobs I have landed by shooting high profile events. The networking alone was amazing, money wise I have probably made close to $10,000 from those contacts over the past 2 years in referals alone. I know $10,00 may not seem like much to some, but heck I don't see that much money lying on the ground. experience is huge in this industry, so I guess my question would be why is it only students who can gain experience through working for free.
I hope everyone reads my post and understands that I am a big believer in "not working for free" I just thing we have to start looking at other outlets besides the weekend wrriors for blame |
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Bob Ford, Photographer
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Lehighton | Pa | USA | Posted: 9:52 AM on 05.30.08 |
->> Richard, I really think you are comparing apples to oranges.
Mr. Weekend Warrior has some really nice equipment, and also has a friend who works in the PR department of the Toronto Maple Leafs. Mr. PR Guy calls Mr. Warrior telling him that he will give him passes to the game if he burns a disc of all of his images. Mr. Warrior thinks this is a great idea, so he goes to the games and takes pictures and gives the images to Mr. PR Guy. Everyone's happy. (Well, except for the team photographer who no longer has a job, but that's another thread). Mr. Warrior is getting NO training. He's not getting his work critiqued by other photographers. He's not learning ethics of the job, because this isn't his job.
Now Mr. Intern takes an unpaid internship at a newspaper called the "Ideal Gazette". The Gazette has a staff of ten in the photo department. Early in his internship he shadows the photographers and photo editors to learn the job. He's taught not only WHAT goes into a caption, but the tricks on how to go about getting it. Mr. Intern also learns how to file photos from the field using a laptop with aircard and/or wifi, Pocket PC with bluetooth, and good old fashioned land line.
He watches and sees how the photographers choose their spots. How they interact with their subjects. How they light their portraits.
He works with the editors to see how they pick photos, and how big they're going to run. He might even spend some time working with the page designers or graphis artists to learn things that he wouldn't at school.
You were at SSA IV with me. You didn't consider that working for free did you? If you get a good internship at a quality paper it can be like going to a 6 month workshop, for free. |
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Erik Markov, Photographer
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Kokomo | IN | | Posted: 10:08 AM on 05.30.08 |
->> Richard, I was fortunate in that I didn't have to do any "free" internships once I graduated. But you're right, unpaid internships are a load of crap. People here, in NPPA and at some papers have been saying the same thing for a long time.
But papers are free to do what they will. Hopefully if a newspaper is offering an unpaid intership, writing or photo, there is someone on staff enlightened enough to step up and say it should be a paid position or not offered at all. I know that even an unpaid intership offers great opportunities for whoever does it, to break into the biz, get some good folio images, make contacts. But I think there can be other ways to get some of that experience too. Fortunately people starting now are in a better position to get advice on these issues now than 10 or 20 years ago.
Sportsshooter, all the other info available on the web and people with knowledge they're willing to share hopefully will help. I think a lot of it has to do with someone with more experience in the biz mentoring someone just starting out to explain some of the mistakes that can be made.
I've tried doing that with some people in high school who have expressed an interest in photography or newspapers, but they quickly lose interest. Its kinda like someone asking me if I do freelance, when I say yes and explain to them the estimated costs for their project, they quickly lose interest and I never hear from them again. When I tell some student I would be glad to talk to them, sit down sometime, take a look at their photos, answer any questions they have, they say ok... and I never hear from them again. |
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Richard Denham, Photographer
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Toronto/Buffalo/Niagara | On | Canada | Posted: 10:11 AM on 05.30.08 |
->> Bob
Don't get me wrong, as I said I can't stand photographers working for free. But my point is all photographers, including interns. I don't think it is fair for anyone. I understand the whole experience thing, and trust me when the PR guy from the Leafs sees the images from the weekend warrior, after 5 days of editing, he will realize that the team photographer who has images edited and uploaded before the game is over is worth the $$$. However I do completely disagree with you on the experience part. I have to admit, I believe I have learned something new at every event I have shot outside of the teams I worked for. Whether it was workflow, ethics, shooting style & locations, I always went out of my way to talk with other shooters and try to bring home some info. Like I said, i was this weekend warrior at one point, but never gave away free photo's. It was this weekend warrioring that got me to the point I am at now. My biggest thing here and I will say it again, as long as companies are going to be asking for free images, people will be offering them. I think we really need to sit back and look at the whole picture, and not try to lay the blame on one "person" but rather the whole situation and everyone involved.
As for SS IV, that was a workshop, thta's not only not comparing apples to oranges, but comparing fruit to meat. |
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Robert Beck, Photographer
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Carlsbad | CA | USA | Posted: 10:47 AM on 05.30.08 |
->> When you go to college, you pay to learn. When you get an internship, you don't pay to learn.
in·tern also in·terne (ntūrn)
n.
1.
a. A student or a recent graduate undergoing supervised practical training. |
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Richard Denham, Photographer
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Toronto/Buffalo/Niagara | On | Canada | Posted: 11:07 AM on 05.30.08 |
->> Mr. Beck, the definition you have posted from the American Heritage Dictionary does not state anything about it being an unpaid or paid position.
If some one could explain the difference between working for a paper/magazine via internship for free vs. freelancing for free than maybe we could get somewhere. Don' tell me it's the experience either, as mentioned earlier I never interned, only freelanced and I have learned more than my fair share from that.
Again back to my point. The biggest thing is that as long as companies are going to be asking for free images, people will be offering them for free.
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE do not think that I condone working for free these are more just thoughts on the issue. |
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Scott Sewell, Photographer
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Topeka | KS | USA | Posted: 11:08 AM on 05.30.08 |
->> I agree with Bob Ford...this is really comparing apples to oranges. I'm just not convinced that a short-term, unpaid internship really relates to the kinds of issues Matt talked about in his front-page article.
As Bob mentioned, one would hope that an intern is learning about the business and how to be a competent, successful photographer. Part of that learning process would mean he/she realizes giving away photos isn't in the best interest of the photographer or the industry. The weekend warrior likely never gets that kind of experience or knowledge.
In an ideal world we'd all like to think interns would be paid, but we know that's not the case and it hasn't been for a long time. Twenty-five years ago when I was in college, the weekend warriors were few and far between and didn't have near the impact on the industry as they do now (at least not that I recall).
If we're concerned about photographers who work for free, I would think it's better to focus on ways to counter or compete against those weekend warriors (or those who take advantage of them), rather than lose a lot of sleep worrying about unpaid interns. |
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Andrew Knapik, Photographer, Assistant
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Lincoln Park | MI | USA | Posted: 11:29 AM on 05.30.08 |
->> Rick,
I agree with you 100%. Like many on SS, I am not a full time photographer, but I am a full time teacher, and work photography as a second job, shooting mostly youth sports.
When getting my teaching degree, I had to do a 15 week student-teaching (internship) that not only did I NOT get paid for, but had to pay 13 credits, for, (roughly $2500 US). Remember that is working 40 hours at the school, plus taking work home, such as papers to grade and tests!!!!!
Andy |
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Sam Morris, Photographer
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Henderson (Las Vegas) | NV | USA | Posted: 11:40 AM on 05.30.08 |
->> I am curious: what papers offer unpaid internships?
I have never heard of an unpaid internship at a newspaper, 'though they may exist. My experiences were being paid 50-75% of the starting salary for the newspapers I interned for. |
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Dennis Wierzbicki, Photographer
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Plainfield | IL | USA | Posted: 11:43 AM on 05.30.08 |
->> Mr. Beck -
"When you get an internship, you don't pay to learn...A student or a recent graduate undergoing supervised practical training."
I respectfully disagree (or maybe I agree with you - I'm not sure). Independent of whether you, I or anyone else thinks it is the right thing to do, when one accepts an unpaid internship (or works for free within another relationship in return for anticipated learning and knowledge) they ARE paying for the experience with the income they are foregoing while pursuing this internship relative to whatever else they could be doing with their time, including working a "real" job, working for someone who would be willing to pay them for their photography, or even pursuing another activity entirely.
The more germane questions, I believe, are: is the "intern" getting value for what they are "paying", as in; are they actually learning enough to justify whatever they are foregoing? And as importantly, is the company who is "employing" them using the fruits of this relationship to compete in a manner we may view as unfair by offering what they produce at an uncompetitive price, using the company's size and resources to leverage the unpaid intern's work into a product for which they are being paid, albeit at a substantially reduced price, or if not a reduced price, maybe an inflated margin?
Is this fair to the intern (after all, if the company is getting paid, why shouldn't the intern be paid?) and is it fair to the company's competition? |
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Alan Look, Photographer
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Bloomington | IL | United States | Posted: 12:34 PM on 05.30.08 |
->> I'll add a thought just for the sake of the thread.
What's the difference between an intern and an apprentice?
In the old days, an apprentice would learn a trade and often would get a small salary and in some cases would live with the journeyman.
In today's world, many trades offer apprentice programs. I haven't stumbled across a single one that isn't a paid program. I'm pretty sure that the pressmen apprentice are paid. Those are the folks that actually apply our images to the paper substrate.
Aren't they doing the same "learning" process as the interns?
Disclaimer: just thoughts as well.... |
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Charles Ludeke, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Columbia | MO | USA | Posted: 12:36 PM on 05.30.08 |
->> Sam, I've done an unpaid internship. I was supposed to receive college credit for it. Then I found out my wonderful school doesn't accept internship credit hours until we're 1 semester in our sequence (e.g. after fall semester of junior year).
So, essentially, the school wouldn't accept credit of an internship I got the summer after my freshman year of college, because I wasn't old enough.
I never understand why they want to limit many internships to juniors/seniors. Why should I be punished for being smart enough to find one sooner and get more experience under my belt? |
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Andrew Miller, Photographer
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Bridgewater | NJ | USA | Posted: 12:49 PM on 05.30.08 |
->> My paper only offers unpaid internships. This is certainly the reason why we don't have one right now. We do offer college credit, but credit won't pay for rent, gasoline, food and beverage, ect. It's really not practical to expect anyone to work in the state of New Jersey for no money. I've discussed it with our photo editor and he agrees that interns should be paid.
The decision to offer college credit vs. a paycheck is not a photo department decision. It's upper management who decides how the money is spent pretty much across the board. We could really use an intern here, but it's easy to see why we don't have one. |
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Carlos Delgado, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Erie | PA | USA | Posted: 1:02 PM on 05.30.08 |
->> The paper I'm interning for offers both paid and non-paid internships. I'm the paid one. The non-paid internship they like to call the "academic internship."
Are duties are VERY different in that I work for the paper full-time and am treated like the rest of the photo staff (shoot daily assignments of varying degrees of importance to the paper... and get paid).
The "academic intern" works only a few days a week, and mainly stays in the office and helps the editor out with clerical duties, watches and learns the processes of the newsroom, and sometimes shadows the photographers. Occasionally, he is entrusted with shooting building mugs and headshots and the rare ribbon cutting ceremony.
I guess if your an unpaid intern, there is some value in learning how things work and getting college credit for it. But giving the intern the same responsibilities as a full-time staff photographer and not paying them accordingly is a different story all together. |
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Robert Beck, Photographer
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Carlsbad | CA | USA | Posted: 1:47 PM on 05.30.08 |
| ->> Dennis (and I normally don't like to address individuals here)...If we are to follow your theory that an intern IS paying for their training then we can only assume that a student is paying DOUBLE for their education. They pay a monetary fee and, to quote you here, "they ARE paying for the experience with the income they are foregoing while pursuing this internship relative to whatever else they could be doing with their time, including working a "real" job, working for someone who would be willing to pay them for their photography, or even pursuing another activity entirely." |
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Robert Beck, Photographer
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Carlsbad | CA | USA | Posted: 1:49 PM on 05.30.08 |
->> Let's see....Freelancing for free:
1. No one pays you.
2. No one trains you.
3. No one tells you what to do.
4. You send your work out to get it seen.
5. You arrange for your own credentials (And if it comes between you/freelancer and an intern at the LA Times, who do you think is getting that last credential?)
6. You own your own photos which can be used for....nothing (per the restrictions listed on the back of that credential you conned from the PR secretary).
7. You purchase, insure and maintain your own equipment.
8. You pick up your own expenses.
9. You are your own editor.
10. Pick your own events to weasel into.
Interning at a paper "for free"...
1. You shoot the assignments assigned to you by your editor/boss.
2. You shoot with company equipment (not always) which is maintained and insured by the company.
3. Your work is run by your newspaper with a byline (free advertising/free portfolio build!)
4.Company takes care of credentialing.
5.You do not own the images you make.
6. You gain experience in all facets of the business while interning.
7. Do a good job and maybe your internship leads into a job.
8. You end up with working portfolio to peddle.
One of the strong points of interning somewhere are the contacts you make and the references you build. Other possible employers recognize that an intern has gone through the daily grind. That intern has gained valuable experience that he/she can apply to the benefit of the new employer.
Was I an intern? Nope. I was....a weekend/summer warrior. I was (hey Matt Brown) a school teacher. Teaching was my bread and butter...Paid for most of my gear. My first camera was an AE-1 with a Vivitar zoom borrowed from my Dad. I shot high school sports and sold prints back to the athletes. I earned enough to buy my own AE-1 and zoom. I would drive to Rugby tournaments, shoot on Saturday, process E6 in my hotel room overnight and take orders from players the next day. I would then print and ship. Once I had to take a guy to small claims court over payment...Ended up on the People's Court with Judge Wapner. I won $1000.00! Then I fell in love with surf photography. It was pure passion of sport and photography. I could not wait to get my Kodachrome back from the lab. If it was a day late I could get very ornery. The surfing stuff I peddled to Breakout, Surfer and Surfing. They all happened to be based in SoCal. I worked my way into a staff position at Surfing and learned a little bit from everyone there....Larry Moore, Aaron Chang, Peter Brouillet, Don King. Then I jumped to Surfer for a few years and learned from Jeff Divine, Warren Bolster, Steve Pezman, Guy Motil, Dale Kobetich and Peter Crawford.
I also shot events on spec. I would weasel a credential somehow and shoot a golf tournament or college game. In return I would offer images in exchange (rarely taken up on that offer by the way). But I remember those who did me a favor then and if they ask something of me now I gladly help them out.It was a long way from there to here....And I have turned down some offers from big hitters based on principle but I have, luckily, always landed on my feet.
Well, I don't where all of this rambling is going. I guess there are a lot of ways to skin a cat or shave your dog. You are not going to agree with all of them. And we will never rid the world of peeps who will do things for free/fun. We will always whine about them. We can try to educate them. But they will never go away. You cannot control what other people do. You can do your best, improve, keep working and just push on. It may come to the point where you just can't take it and move on to something else. That option is yours. My Mom always told me it would be a good idea to work at something that I liked to do. I may not be right very often....But my Mom was right all of the time.
The new "Keep It Simple" CD by Van Morrison is very good. |
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Richard Denham, Photographer
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Toronto/Buffalo/Niagara | On | Canada | Posted: 2:36 PM on 05.30.08 |
->> "The new "Keep It Simple" CD by Van Morrison is very good."
Yes it is, the title track "Keep it Simple" is my favourite off that album. heck I may be young but I know good music when I hear it. |
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Dennis Wierzbicki, Photographer
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Plainfield | IL | USA | Posted: 3:07 PM on 05.30.08 |
->> Actually, what a student frequently forgoes by going to college is getting a job that doesn't require a college degree for for the duration of their study, so yes, in effect, they are paying "double". More accurately, they are paying more than just their paper costs. Just because we don't have to write checks or fork over money to pay these so-called "opportunity costs" doesn't mean they are any less real.
The economic decision students (or their parents) make when they decide to attend college is that the long term value of going to school is worth the investment they make both in terms of the tuition and fees and other costs plus the value of what they could have earned had they instead gotten a job right out of High School.
If you view an internship as a form of education, I think it's fair to perceive it as in investment not only in time but in the lower salary you are willing to take in return for the opportunity you have with the internship.
I have a buddy whose son is a 24 year-old independent film-maker who is a couple years out of school, with a degree in his field, and he is currently a Page with NBC in Hollywood. He's making something like $10 per hour, which is maybe half of what he could make (I'm guessing here) doing a marketable job for which he is qualified and trained, like editing or working a camera. Plus, I'm gonna guess $10 per hour in LA is pretty close to ZERO in purchasing power. However, he is learning a ton, and making myriad connections and contacts that have a real, tangible value that he and his parents figure are worth more than the extra hourly fees he could be getting working full-time.
As opposed to the character Kenneth in 30 Rock, who seems to view being a Page as his life's work, my buddy's kid sees his internship as a launching pad for something much more substantial. In the context of the "bigger picture" of his career plan, taking the Page job makes sense to my friend and his family. |
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Manuello Paganelli, Photographer
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Los Angeles | CA | USA | Posted: 4:01 PM on 05.30.08 |
->> Richard I am on location but wanted to send you this and hope it makes sense to everybody. As far as I know S.I. does pay for images that they use from folks who call cold & summit their work.
Now going straight to your question some interns do get pay while others do it without any compensation. Some schools even required that the students ONLY gets credit.
Also I hate using the word free for, as Robert Beck clearly put it, they are getting a lot more in return. Read his post again.
I believe that all depends what your needs are and where you want to go and for whom you wish to work for.
Usually in my shoots, along with my one or two assistants, an intern or two will come along. Some time I pay them and others come along for the simple reason of working and learning from me. In fact each week I get tons of emails from assistants and interns who want to be part of my crew.
In most shoots I dont need them but I want to give them a chance and taste of how it happens and what it takes. For most of this kids that chance may never arrive.
Also some interns who do work for me get the privilege to use some of my lighting gear and other equipments. Most of all they learn about the business and lighting. Interns had broken my strobes or other gears and I never charge for the repairs. It comes out of my pockets. So if I am paying them, should they pay me back? Is all how you make it happen and if is a win/win deal then move avanti.
There are part of our fabric were a tag is priceless. Every now and then I do consultation and my fees range around $90-$125 per hour with a minimum of two. My interns and assistants get all of this for free. Recently I spent 3 hrs helping a fellow photographer with his book and some business ideas. He wanted to move forward pass the second base. A couple weeks later, yes only 2 weeks but it doesnt mean that there is a magic number, he phoned me telling me that ideas he grasped from our time helped him land an account of more than 5K.
Knowledge is power!
IN the late 80's and early in my career while living in the DC area, my dear friend and great photographer Cameron Davidson said to me, "Pag it takes money to make money. If you think little you get little." Folks think about these words. It sure made a difference in my PHOTO BUSINESS CAREER!
I never assisted or interned at all. But then I didnt know that such words were even part of the photo lingo. But I wish I had done it. I wish I had learned photography from a light guru or hot fashion or sports shooter. My first job was for Forbes in 1987 and I remember the pho ed asking me "how much you usually charge for an assistant?" That was the very first time I heard that word.
In many ways, learning, is much easier today. And then you got the net and all sorts of foto forums were plugging a question will give you plenty of answers.
The question for any "wanna be interns" is this, would you intern for "free" for your small local sports newspaper photographer or for a wonderful and brilliant man name Walter Iooss?
Would you rather learn fashion and portrait photography with a guy posting from Craigslist of with the ICONIC Irvin Penn.
You choose and pick and see which door opens up and hope that that road will lead you to the right place. That is how life evolves, there is not magic wand unless your name ends Kennedy or Rockefeller. Good fortune has a lot to do with it. At some moment in your life or due to location even working and learning from your local newspaper photographer is your best chance.
More 2 come
Pag
http://www.ManuelloPaganelli.com |
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Jolie Myers, Student/Intern
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Santa Monica | CA | USA | Posted: 7:16 PM on 05.30.08 |
->> While I agree that the time you invest in learning pays off in the long run, what about the talented photographers that don't have the means to support themselves while working an unpaid, forty-hour-a-week internship?
I just completed an unpaid internship with National Public Radio (probably the best learning experience of my life), and this very issue is troublesome for many that work at NPR. They are afraid that if they keep excepting only interns who can essentially "afford" to work there, they are excluding a vast socioeconomic segment of the population. And since a good portion of the people they hire come out of internship positions, this could be seriously damaging the diversity of the work force.
This issue is about diversity as much as anything else. |
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Robert Beck, Photographer
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Carlsbad | CA | USA | Posted: 9:20 PM on 05.30.08 |
| ->> I'm not sure a "vast socioeconomic segment of the population" is looking for internships at NPR or anywhere else. What is the difference between someone who struggles to get through college and someone who struggles through an unpaid internship? Or someone who struggles to get a job right out of high school? |
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John Lariviere, Photographer
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Tigard | OR | USA | Posted: 10:58 PM on 05.30.08 |
->> Its obvious that there is not uniformity when it comes to intern programs amongst companies, or within industries. The manner in which a company conducts their intern program reflects their value system and the business climate in the industry which they participate. It very likely reflects the companys approach to all personnel policies and compensation packages offered by the company.
I have an intern starting mid-June on a project I am managing in an industry not related to media. Here is alternative dimension to a couple of lists provided in an earlier post as written in a manner which the company I work for approaches its intern program.
1. You will be paid. The salary is very attractive and aligns with your level of education. You will also be eligible for relocation assistance.
2. All equipment needed for the project will be supplied and maintained by the company. If you need specialized training, that will be provided also.
3. Your project assignment will be directed by your manager and consistent communication and support from your manager is expected to assure you have the best opportunity of success.
4. Your work may be exposed to others in the industry, or it may only be for internal purposes. It all depends upon the nature of the project.
5. If you need access to industry events, the company will facilitate all that is needed.
6. All intellectual property, copyrights and patents remain the property of the company.
7. The intern program is designed to expose you to a wealth of experience and a vast network of people that are the best and most talented in the industry. There is a formal intern network to provide resources and support.
8. Your performance will be fairly evaluated and you will get the feedback direct from your manager at the end of your internship. It is strongly recommended that the intern delivers a project presentation to his/her team at the close of the internship. The company actively uses the intern program to find talent for future permanent positions. It also has an active scholarship program that high performing interns can be the beneficiary.
9. What you accomplish during your internship will likely be a noted and respected accomplishment for your resume or your project portfolio. |
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Clark Brooks, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Urbana | IL | USA | Posted: 11:27 PM on 05.30.08 |
->> I wish we could rate threads as well as individual posts. This one would get a funny from me.
Folks look at this way. If we had *MORE* unpaid intern/apprenticeships we would have *FEWER* people giving away their time or their images.
Why? Because the neophytes would learn the true value their work. They would learn the importance of maintaining and protecting their copyright. They would have a clear understanding why and what they need to charge, not so they can keep the industry from going to hell, but how charging appropriate fees benefits THEM. How are they going to learn this if members of the professions have the heads so far up their fannies they see light above them from their esophagus. The profession needs willing mentors not whinning a-holes!
At one of the schools I cover a mom takes pictures at all the sporting events. One day we were talking and she, a D50 user with a low grade consumer gear, said, "I wish I had nice equipment like you."
I looked her in the eye and smiled. "If you sold your images instead of giving them to people you would."
Her husband, who was sitting in the bleachers next to her, nodded his head in agreement.
"I dont' give them away any more," she said. "I started charging for them, not much, but I don't sell very many."
Like Paul Harvey, the rest of the story.
A year earlier I noticed her on the sidelines. The situation worked out so that I could strike up a conversation with her to learn more about her.
She told me how she bought the camera, the new zoom for basketball and how she was learning what she could. I offered to mentor her as I do with several other photographers and an internship if she was interested. She said she would get back to me and never did.
Had she done so, today she would have a steady stream of weekly editorial assignments and likely been using the same equipment that she envied at the start of the latter conversation.
You can look at the situation with unpaid/low paid interships from several different viewing points. The one that is most logical to me is this; I look at internships as an investment...back in the day they use to call it 'sweat equitity'.
Just like giving your broker money to invest, down the road you expect to benefit from helping someone else. The broker benefits. The company who's stock was purchased benefits.
In the case of internships the knowledge acquired in the process is equitity toward a better future. Interns are paying/investing with their time and labor in exchange for knowledge that will hopefully lead to a better future. The company benefits, the readers/clients benefit and the intern gains a vast amount of knowlege that gives them a competitive edge. It is a short term investment that should always lead to long term dividends.
The mentoring process works. Those who I've been fortunate to work with the past four years all have adequate equipment for assignment work, charge market rates or above with respect for the cost of living and market in their areas, and do excellent, dependable photographic work.
Unpaid internships/apprenticeships - low pay opportunities are not bad for the industry they are vital process to its survival and growth. |
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David Meyer, Photographer
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Orlando | FL | USA | Posted: 12:09 AM on 05.31.08 |
->> You can't pay this month's rent with the experience earned from an unpaid position. Heck, you can hardly pay this months rent with the average salary of today's seasoned journalist.
Surely, an internship will benefit you down the road -- experience, connections, resume building, etc. You can't ignore those benefits. But, as Matt's article implies, you should never work for free.
Employment is a simple transaction. Money for productivity. The more productive and skilled the employee is, the more he/she earns and the more his/her employer benefits. Interns, as a general rule, are less skilled and productive. They should be paid commensurately in the currencies of money and training.
BTW - Surname aside, I have to agree with Jolie's comments about the untenable position in which unpaid/low-pay internships place participants. I would guess, as Dennis' anecdote implies, that most participants have some sort of safety net. What if you didn't have a safety net? How would that affect your ability to stick with it and make it in this industry? How would losing the voice/eye of someone who has been forced to fight tooth and nail for everything they have help the industry? |
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Trevor Brown, Photographer, Assistant
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Denver | CO | USA | Posted: 2:08 AM on 05.31.08 |
->> For what it's worth, I started out as an unpaid intern. Having majored in Government at Connecticut College, I haven't had the more common, 'go to PJ school, get an internship at a small paper, get a job at a bigger paper' experience. Instead, I graduated with a degree that has nothing to do with photography and headed to Portland, Maine where I completed the documentary program at the Salt Institute. From there, I moved back to Denver and finagled my way into a great situation that I've now been in for over 7 years.
It started when I cold called Rich Clarkson, not knowing ANYTHING about the guy. I went down to his office, he showed me around, I showed him my meticulously printed portfolio, and once I realized the magnitude of his legacy, I made sure to ask him if his company ever needed unpaid help before I left. This was a key moment in my life and something I'll never regret doing.
Yes, it sucked working for free. Thankfully, I'm from Denver, so I lived with my parents and valeted cars at night to make cash. I bought my first 1D with that money and never looked back.
During that time I got credentials to NFL and MLB games and assisted on tons of portraits all the while answering the phones and trimming prints. Because I knew I was in a good place, I worked my tail off and proved myself enough to get offered a PAID internship, which then turned into a salaried position as a staff photographer. In the 7+ years that I have now been with the company, I've learned more about running a business and more about photography than I ever dreamed of.
An underlying theme in Matt's article is that these weekend warriors aren't educated in selling their work. As professional photographers, we need to let these warriors know that what they're doing is bringing all of us down. When I hear about people shooting for next to nothing, I tell them they should be charging more. Most of them look at me like I'm painted purple and say "REALLY???" Hopefully, the next time they get a call (or make a call) they'll ask for more money. If not, it will never stop. All we can hope for at that point is that the knuckleheads who hire them finally realize that the $100/weekend rates aren't getting them the quality they'd like.
The bottom line is that you have to start somewhere. Yeah, I wished I could have been paid during that period in my life, but in the grand scheme of things, I got paid in so many other ways. I got educated in picture sales, how to bid out large projects in addition to learning to suck it up and toss a great photo that wasn't tack sharp. My photographic knowledge grew leaps and bounds those first 10 months....YES 10 MONTHS!!! But I never lost sight of my goal...to get PAID for taking photographs, and that is exactly what I've been doing for the past 6 years and 8 months. |
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Robert Beck, Photographer
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Carlsbad | CA | USA | Posted: 2:15 AM on 05.31.08 |
| ->> Sounds like one of those weight loss ads! "And you've kept it off for how long?" |
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Manuello Paganelli, Photographer
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Los Angeles | CA | USA | Posted: 4:49 PM on 05.31.08 |
->> Trevor since you didnt know much about pj I see how you ended up making the wrong choice.
"I made sure to ask him if his company ever needed unpaid help before I left"
For those newbies or interns if something like this ever comes up, how about asking if there is a part time job or some needed help? Just leave the unpaid part out. Free help is always needed and wanted but you also may get pay by asking. They maybe in need of help.
Sadly that is one of the MANY reasons why plenty of clients dont think much of photographers. If we dont value ourselves or the service we can provide why complain later?
Sorry, I just dont get it at all. And then you worked for almost a yr without getting any compensation even although you know how rotten that was? Is that what you are saying in here?
After 3 months or so did you ever think to ask for money at all? Did you ask Clarkson for any payments?
Folks once thing is to learn and work as an intern here and there for a few hrs but to do it for 10 long months?
More 2 come
http://www.ManuelloPaganelli.com
Pag |
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Matthew Apgar, Photographer, Student/Intern
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Bridgewater | NJ | USA | Posted: 6:37 PM on 05.31.08 |
->> When I was a student (the first time around), I didn't even apply to internships that were unpaid. I sent out 60+ applications to paid internships and finally landed a minimum wage ($5.15/hr) spring internship at the Southeast Missourian in Cape Girardeau after getting dozens of rejection letters from many of the other papers on my list. I refused to apply to ANY paper who wanted me to work for free, as a moral standard for my work. And I continue to stress to aspiring photojournalists that their quality of work, their ethics, their education are *not worthless*. It's people who are giving away photos for free who are destroying the photojournalism profession.
That said, I spent a few years working for a large print media corporation who refused to pay interns. I fought constantly to hire quality photojournalists as interns. Each time I tried to convince my bosses that we would get a much higher quality of work if we paid an intern who had an education which included background in ethics, journalism, etc., I was met with "it's not corporate policy to pay interns". I don't think quality was ever on their minds, though, as they continued to employ bodies who were capable of pushing a button--even if they couldn't properly focus, expose or compose a photograph (though that does not apply to all of our previous interns, it does describe a few).
Folks, there will always be lots of competition in this field of work. And with fewer and fewer newspapers, less and less jobs, and a continuing increase in aspiring professionials/college graduates, people will practically sell their first born to break into the industry. In the long run, you're hurting yourself and others who have slaved to do this line of work, by giving your time, efforts, and education away for free. Don't do it...you've read all the doomsday threads on Sportsshooter. You know the threat of unemployment is real. Don't help to destroy what so many of your predecessors worked so hard to build. |
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Trevor Brown, Photographer, Assistant
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Denver | CO | USA | Posted: 8:24 PM on 05.31.08 |
->> I think some of you are missing my point.
No, working for free didn't suck...not getting paid sucked. And on top of that, you're twisting my words into something entirely different than what I meant.
It was not rotten. It was far from it! I made great friendships with all my current coworkers and had access to a bunch of equipment I would have had to otherwise rent. As someone young (without a lot of money) and new to the profession, it was great! I shot stuff on the side (that I did get paid for at a decent rate) while gaining valuable experience on how to run a business. Additionally, I would have bones thrown my way every now and then...I testified in a trial that some handicap group brought against the Rockies regarding their disabled seating. I got paid a ton by the lawyers for being subpoenaed and having to testify. I also got involved with some book projects that paid me separately. All of that was a result of my internship. He knew he needed to compensate me, but couldn't since he already had a paid intern. In any case, I was making money from my internship in several ways (my freelance stuff that I shot with company equipment...family portraits, etc...and book projects, crazy trials, etc).
Additionally, I didn't go into that first meeting thinking "I'm going to sell out and offer myself for free!" I didn't go into the meeting expecting anything. Heck, I didn't even know who he was! However, once I realized that I was standing on top of a golden opportunity, I didn't know what else to do. I had my foot in the door with a very accomplished photographer right in my own back yard and I made sure the chance didn't get away from me.
Lastly, the stuff I was shooting at the time WAS being paid for by the clients we had under contract. I may have not been getting paid, but the company was. As you can see, my situation is a little different.
Instead of complaining that people are undercutting us all, go out and educate them when you see it happen in front of you. That is what I do.
Some may think I made the wrong choice. That's cool. But in my head and heart, I knew what I did was the right thing for me. And quite frankly, I hold myself to a very high standard because I've been educated, and not disdained, by fellow shooters in Colorado and elsewhere. If anything, they've taught me to take MORE pride in my work. |
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Yamil Sued, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Peoria | AZ | USA | Posted: 10:18 PM on 05.31.08 |
->> I graduated from Brooks back in 1985, At that time I was an assistant, not for free but a paid assistant, getting paid around $75 a day in the Dallas Area. Not too shabby for 1985. But I wasn't about to work for free to learn when there were enough paid Gigs back then for me to be employed, arn and make enough Cheddar to live on.
In all honesty, i don't get this unpaid Internships (after Graduation that is)
I see internships during the summer time for college students, after Graduation is another story, that is taking advantage af a youf person due to his lack of experience!!
Y |
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Manuello Paganelli, Photographer
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Los Angeles | CA | USA | Posted: 5:34 PM on 06.01.08 |
->> Trevor my comments on your business ethics has to do while YOU WERE younger and doing your internship. I am not saying that you are doing things for free or hurting the industry at this point in your career. That said, I also really appreciate your candor.
My point is for anybody that wants to be an intern toda, given the chance, to find out if there is a paying position before saying "I will do it for free" Or at least after doing it for a while to speak up in trying to get pay.
On your initial writings you didnt make it clear until your next post that at that moment there wasnt anything available, for it had already been taken by another intern.
But I really dont understand why anybody would have to endure 10 mos of an intership without been compensate financially. Aside from the friendship, been educated in picture sales, moral support, business advices or the use of free equipment is something else and that usually happens when you are surrounded by a solid group of savvy photographers.
You wrote, "
Yes, it sucked working for free"
In this case, to me or anybody else, I would think that "sucks" is pretty much the same as rotten when you extended 10 mos.
Also I do have a problem with this line and I hope that others INTERNS can learn, "I may have not been getting paid, but the company was."
Here you were shooting and making money for the company yet nothing rained down on you specially for a young man who needed money.
To me anything that doesnt make money, while bringing benefits to another person or company, is rotten specially when doing it for ten months.
No everybody is lucky to be doing an internship while living at home with their parents. You were able to do that. What about a guy from Tennessee who gets an internship in NYC or LA?
Free internship is great for a short period of time or longer if you are been paid. Anything else I dont think is a win/win deal.
I feel that after 3 or 4 months, even less time, your service is notice and if your pix are speaking loud, making waves and bringing some bacon then is time to say, "hey how about splitting the pie my way too." Is about any students, interns or pro photographers to be able to express ourselves so that can lead into a better paying gig.
All it takes is asking and the sooner the better.
More 2 come
Pag
http://www.ManuelloPaganelli.com |
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Keith Mokris, Student/Intern
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Cleveland | OH | USA | Posted: 6:52 PM on 06.01.08 |
->> I just wanted to throw my own two cents in here. Straight up, I can't see how I could take a 40 hour-a-week unpaid internship. I understand ALL the benefits: connections, building a portfolio, work experience, and on-the-job training.
Yet, I already work two jobs on top of going to school just to get by. I STILL have loans and I STILL try to do extracurriculars. I just think people who are WORKING should be provided SOMETHING. I had a multimedia internship 40 hours a week and at least made 6 bucks an hour. Thats something a hard-working student can at least manage.
One of the topics we frequently bring up in this forum is the idea of a "community" where everyone looks out for each other. These "unpaid" internships (for 40 hours a week) certainly need to be looked at.
I just wanted to offer a student perspective. |
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Daniel Putz, Photographer
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Jefferson | MD | USA | Posted: 9:20 PM on 06.01.08 |
->> I'll agree with Keith...straight up. You hit the nail on the head. We're young, developing, etc...but we also need to stay afloat financially. Asking 40hrs a week of work out of someone who is ALREADY working their butt off is just asking for sub-par performance...even if their heart is into it 100%.
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I just finished up school, and worked 4 years at the student paper as an assistant photo editor and photographer UNPAID (no students at the paper were paid ANYTHING) as well as with the SID and local papers. For 4 years of school and work, I've been paid a grand total of $700 (for work with several division Sports Info departments, not just ours).
----------- |
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Keith Mokris, Student/Intern
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Cleveland | OH | USA | Posted: 10:41 PM on 06.01.08 |
->> I'm glad to see your post Daniel. I'm not saying I dont want to work 110 %....I'm just saying SOME monetary compensation has to come to the students.
If its 20 hours or less a week, maybe thats a different story. But some students don't have rich parents who pay for all their gear. Haha. Equipment is expensive. Working for the school newspaper is one thing, but even the paper at our school pays its editorial board an hourly rate as SOMETHING.
The one concept I can never understand are the students who go to another city during the summer, pay out of their OWN pocket for housing, and THEN work an unpaid internship. I know friends who work 20 hours on their summer weekends because their internship won't help them out at all. |
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Robert Seale, Photographer
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Houston | TX | USA | Posted: 11:38 PM on 06.01.08 |
->> Though the experiences I gained and the contacts i made were priceless, I was paid for my internship. Most newspaper internships are paid, even if for very little money.
I was lucky.....I worked a regular shift, did regular staff assignments, drove a company car, had a giant cell phone (think Michael Douglas- in Wall Street...), and had a fairly decent salary. In fact, I took a pay cut to take my first "real" newspaper job. ;-)
Newspapers that offer internships that may be "unpaid" on paper, can often find ways of taking care of their interns. They can offer class credit, or they can throw you two or three freelance assignments during the week to make up your intern "salary."
There are usually ways of making these internships a win-win situation without taking advantage of young students.
Best,
Robert |
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Daniel Putz, Photographer
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Jefferson | MD | USA | Posted: 12:00 AM on 06.02.08 |
->> Hey, Robert. I notice you have a picture of me on your member page. ;) GG
-------------
I landed a paid-internship as well, BUT I had to commute an hour, got 21 cents a mile, and had to use my own car and equipment (no pool). YMMV. |
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Vincent Johnson, Photographer
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Chicago | IL | USA | Posted: 12:50 AM on 06.02.08 |
->> I can't give away my time for free by reading all these super long posts.
So I will just say. Richard you nailed it right on the head. |
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