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Owner ship of photo taken with your Camera?
Daniel Brayack, Photographer
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Charleston | WV | USA | Posted: 3:38 PM on 04.29.08 |
->> Here is the situation-
I gave my camera to a friend to take a photo of me.
Do I own the rights to that photo or does he?
I said - "Stand here, and hold down the button"
Which he did - I set the exposure, did all the post processing work etc etc.
So now, this photo sells and my friend wants a cut of the $$ - do I own him all of it?
Can i use the photo on my website if he doesn't want me to?
Thanks in Advance |
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Patrick Fallon, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Columbia | MO | USA | Posted: 3:57 PM on 04.29.08 |
| ->> Can you just buy him a drink and be done with it? |
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Matthias Krause, Photographer
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Brooklyn | NY | USA | Posted: 3:59 PM on 04.29.08 |
| ->> My understanding is that he owns the copyright of the photograph in question. However, he would need a release from you to use the pic in any other form than just privately. You can not put it on your website without his permission if it is public. It is always smart to clear these things up BEFORE you start - and put it down in writing. |
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Robert Longhitano, Photographer
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Philadelphia | PA | USA | Posted: 3:59 PM on 04.29.08 |
->> Interesting. I recall someone on this site set up a remote camera in a military jet he did all the work and installed a trigger for the pilot to press to take the photos. If memory serves me right he shared bylines with the pilot BUT copyright is a whole different animal.
The standard statement is if you took the photo you own the copyright but there are the circumstances in your case that are different since you set it all up and he just hit a button. |
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Eric Canha, Photographer
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Not Listed | MA | United States | Posted: 4:05 PM on 04.29.08 |
->> I would argue that YOU own the copyright. Your friend brought nothing to the process, save the fact that he acted as a human tripod. Make that a bi-pod. In your example he exercised no judgment nor did he lend anything to the creation of the photograph.
If Steven King were to sit in a room dictating a story to me. And my purpose was to transcribe his spoken word on to paper. I could not claim any ownership in the work. |
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Matthias Krause, Photographer
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Brooklyn | NY | USA | Posted: 4:13 PM on 04.29.08 |
| ->> Eric, your analogy is flawed since the friend was the one pressing the button and therefore making the final creative decision however small. And my understanding is that that is what determes who owns the copyright. But I´m not a lawyer and if this is more than a theoretical excercise you should consult one... |
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Allen Hubbard, Photographer
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Spokane | WA | USA | Posted: 4:14 PM on 04.29.08 |
->> Heck Daniel, I would give him the 25 cents! LOL
Sorry couldn't resist.
That is a very good question, I have wondered the same thing in a situation where I was shooting some celebrity images and would have their manager use my camera to shoot a photo of me with the artist.
In my case the person who pushed the button has no idea what they took. That was in film days so they never saw anything. I did use one of Reba and I for a HS reunion book, but it wasn't commercial use.
(told my HS buddies it was taken when I was on a date with her, some believed it as a picture never lies right!) |
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Eric Canha, Photographer
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Not Listed | MA | United States | Posted: 4:21 PM on 04.29.08 |
->> Matthias I am going on the basis that Daniel states that HE said hold the button. I take that to mean that he is directing when to release the shutter.
How about in the case of a camera rigged to fire when a subject occupies a certain space?
ie A camera that trips when a person enters the room? Technically the subject is taking a self portrait, no? |
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Alan Look, Photographer
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Bloomington | IL | United States | Posted: 4:27 PM on 04.29.08 |
| ->> Should have mad him sign a work for hire before he pushed the button. |
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Mike Carlson, Photographer
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Bayonet Point | FL | USA | Posted: 4:35 PM on 04.29.08 |
| ->> Since you're giving the instructions I'd call it an unpaid internship, give them the drink Fallon suggested and tell them how great it was for them to have had the opportunity to take the picture of such a famous person. |
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Daniel Brayack, Photographer
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Charleston | WV | USA | Posted: 4:39 PM on 04.29.08 |
->> He's my best friend and we are arguing about it mostly in jest - but I sold the photo for $200 - ended up giving him $100 for it. (after he insisted)
I always figured that "If it was my camera, it was my photo". I never expected to sell the photo, but it ended selling....
It ended up making the cover of a book...
Funny how things work out....
There definitely seems to be no black or white answer - at least presented yet.
Thanks for the discussion though.
-Daniel |
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Matthias Krause, Photographer
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Brooklyn | NY | USA | Posted: 4:39 PM on 04.29.08 |
| ->> Eric, even if you direct somebody to push the button it`s still his decision when to actually fire. In the other case I think yes, the subject is taking a selfportrait and the copyright belongs to him. But than again I´m sure the button concept is a big simplification of the whole copyright law and I would be surprise to not find big books being written about these cases... |
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Matthias Krause, Photographer
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Brooklyn | NY | USA | Posted: 4:41 PM on 04.29.08 |
->> "I always figured that "If it was my camera, it was my photo"
Daniel, if that would be the case than a lot of rental houses would own a lot of pictures, no?!? |
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Bill Ross, Photographer
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Colorado Springs | CO | USA | Posted: 4:53 PM on 04.29.08 |
| ->> The way I see it... You were the photo editor and your friend was the actual photographer. So, share... Or use a remote trigger next time. |
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Mark Peters, Photographer
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Highland | IL | USA | Posted: 5:08 PM on 04.29.08 |
->> (Standard not an attorney, not legal advice disclaimer.)
My lay understanding of copyright law.
If your friend was your employee and took the picture in the course of their employment, it likely is a work for hire and the copyright yours. If your friend is not your employee, without a written agreement, it is not work for hire. Therefore, for you to claim copyright, I presume you would have to assert joint authorship over the image by nature of your creative control (and not ownership of the instrument creating the image. That would be akin to the owner of a paintbrush claiming copyright on a painted work would it not?) If you do not have a foundation for joint authorship, the copyright is his - and you owe him $100. |
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Charley Starr, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Ketchikan | AK | USA | Posted: 6:11 PM on 04.29.08 |
->> Lets see.... Camera rental $50.00, Personal photo instruction $50.00, post processing $50.00, 50% agent fee for selling the photo $100...looks like he owes you some money!
I'd get a new friend! |
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Eric Canha, Photographer
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Not Listed | MA | United States | Posted: 6:15 PM on 04.29.08 |
->> Daniel if that's what your best friend gets away with I hate to think what casual acquaintances do to you.
If I was in your shoes we'd be talking about a FORMER best friend. One way or another his true colors are shining through.... run the other way. |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 6:23 PM on 04.29.08 |
| ->> wow...with friend's like that........you been punked! |
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Susie Lin, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Honolulu | HI | USA | Posted: 7:48 PM on 04.29.08 |
| ->> I say whomever pushes the button has ownership to the photo. |
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Mark Peters, Photographer
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Highland | IL | USA | Posted: 8:02 PM on 04.29.08 |
| ->> On second thought.....tell him the copyright is his, but since he doesn't have a model release, you want a licensing fee.... |
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Tom Ervin, Photographer, Assistant
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Palm Beach | FL | USA | Posted: 9:32 PM on 04.29.08 |
->> When was a staffer for one of the best picture papers in the country we shared photo credit for many images. Example: When a fellow photog would give a suggestion on a shoot and helps with the setup they also would be credited with the photo. When a lab tech would help sometimes they would have a photo credit.
When a photog on this site solicit ideas and then ask how to shoot that idea it makes me wonder. Maybe they should share that photo credit.
I know many would disagree.
The easiest thing in photography is to press that tiny button . Unless your getting shot at, beaten, knifed, gorged by a bull, running for your life, shooting with broken hand with a cast...ect. |
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Walter Calahan, Photographer
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Westminster | MD | USA | Posted: 9:34 PM on 04.29.08 |
->> The picture is of you.
You own the camera.
You set up the scene.
You set the exposure, and focus.
You instructed your 'friend' how you want the image taken.
Your 'friend' pushed the shutter button, and stood there like a tripod.
Give me a break, you call this person a 'friend?'
Do I own the copyright to every photo I've taken when someone hands me their point-n-shoot and asks me to take a photo of them with the friends or family standing in front of something they want to remember from their vacation????
NO.
Many studio photographers don't actually push the cable release for many of their work, their assistant does.
Buy the guy a fifth of Jack Daniel's and instruct him to drink it in all in one 30 minute sitting. He'll forget he even knows you. HA! |
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Jon Blacker, Photographer
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Toronto | ON | Canada | Posted: 10:10 PM on 04.29.08 |
| ->> You 'sold' an image for the cover of a book......for $200? |
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Gary Shook, Photographer
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Otsego | MI | USA | Posted: 11:14 PM on 04.29.08 |
| ->> I set up my camera in the woods with a remote trigger that was activated by movement of a deer, does the deer have the copyright? |
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Greg Ferguson, Photographer
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Scottsdale | Az | USA | Posted: 6:21 AM on 04.30.08 |
->> Straight from the Government's copyright site...
http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-general.html#mywork
When is my work protected?
Your work is under copyright protection the moment it is created and fixed in a tangible form that it is perceptible either directly or with the aid of a machine or device.
The camera is the machine/device that fixes the image in a perceptible form.
Nowhere on the site does it talk about who owns the equipment or directed the scene. But, that leads to a question about who'd own the copyright to a movie if a director, screen writer, and camera-man were all self-employed and collaborated to make the movie. Probably the last one standing. |
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Daniel Brayack, Photographer
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Charleston | WV | USA | Posted: 6:30 AM on 04.30.08 |
->> Greg, Mark, Matthias and all those who argue that it is indeed his copyright - I concur -
Thankfully, it doesn't matter in this case - and really, I was the bad friend for not offering to split the $$ in the first place.
This is certainly a good discussion, but I think the copyright laws are pretty clear on the subject.
In the future - Its nice to know that I need to be pushing the button - unless of course, I am employeeing a photographer. |
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Mark Peters, Photographer
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Highland | IL | USA | Posted: 8:38 AM on 04.30.08 |
| ->> The term human tripod has appeared several times in this thread. I guess the trick here to protect copyright would be to have them hold the camera and trigger it with a remote..... |
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Jim Colburn, Photo Editor, Photographer
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McAllen | TX | USA | Posted: 9:31 AM on 04.30.08 |
->> I would think that unless you were smart enough to have your friend sign a work-for-hire agreement then he owns the copyright since he took the picture.
After all, he did take the picture... |
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Jesse Hutcheson, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Newport News | va | United States | Posted: 10:46 AM on 04.30.08 |
->> tell this person to stop being a prick.
Do you and your friends not do stuff for each other for free? I mean, if I need help in bio one of my bio buddies will quickly come help me. I had a 10 page research paper this past week that an english major friend checked over before I turned it in.
Recently one of my buddies took his girlfriend to a formal. I shot some photos of them together before the dance and had prints waiting for him at his door before they got home that night. You dont do stuff to expect $ in return. I did it because he was my friend. I mean, in my opinion if a friend asks for help you give the help and move on. Once in a while its nice to get a drink in return but I wouldn't expect more. |
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Jesse Hutcheson, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Newport News | va | United States | Posted: 10:48 AM on 04.30.08 |
->> On the subject of the photo in the camera.
I shoot the sporting events for the university I go to. Once in a while I'll actually enter the track and field meet to participate. Occasionally one of my friends will take my camera out and click off a few frames of me running. The thought of me PAYING them would be crazy. They know what they are doing is just being a friend. Getting a few photos of the guy who takes photos. |
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Aaron Rhoads, Photographer
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McComb | MS | USA | Posted: 10:54 AM on 04.30.08 |
| ->> Movies and television. Who's it it? The director or the camera operator? |
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Dave Amorde, Photographer
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Lake Forest | CA | USA | Posted: 11:40 AM on 04.30.08 |
->> "tell this person to stop being a prick."
First people call him a "human tripod", and now you want him to "stop being a prick"? Comon people; we can't have it both ways!
I consider "human tripod" to be quite a compliment...
Okay...you're cruising the Hollywood Hills, and decide to pull over to grab a quick snap of the sunset. A garbage truck drives by, barely misses you, but the shock manages to dislodge your fuzzy-focusing Canon Mark III from your hands. It goes tumbling down the hill, where the camera strap catches the spokes of Jay Leno's mint 1966 Norton Commando, which flails said camera up onto Santa Monica Blvd. Resting in the gutter, it appears your prize instrument's adventure is finally over, until - voila! - a huge gust of wind, caused by Lindsay Lohan's weaving SUV doing 90mph, miraculously succeeds in tossing your camera up onto the sidewalk, where it lands lens-up. A stumbling Nick Nolte happens by, kicking your camera's shutter release, just in time to capture an outrageous up-skirt of a certain Ms. Spears exiting the passenger compartment of Paris Hilton's latest BeaverMobile. Unfortunately Mel Gibson is walking in the opposite direction, because he decides now is the time to upchuck his dinner - 5 Tostito chips and a blender of Margueritas - onto your disaster of a camera. Naturally, there were several 12-year-old Paparazzi present to document aforementioned up-skirt on their camera phones, and one of the industrious little brats decides to grab your Canon, puke and all, and run to first floor men's room at the National Inquirer, where the memory card door is quickly de-vomited. The memory card is removed, the National Enquirer runs a huge cover story of the Spears encounter, an image from your camera runs as a gorgeous double-truck in that month's Penthouse, and becomes the most popular download the Web has ever seen.
Who owns the copyright? |
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Daniel Brayack, Photographer
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Charleston | WV | USA | Posted: 1:01 PM on 04.30.08 |
->> Did you have to think about that Dave, or did it just come out like that?
I'm impressed
Definitely funny. |
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Allen Hubbard, Photographer
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Spokane | WA | USA | Posted: 1:35 PM on 04.30.08 |
->> "A stumbling Nick Nolte happens by, kicking your camera's shutter release, just in time to capture an outrageous up-skirt of a certain Ms. Spears"
Well obviouly Nick Nolte, he took the photo in question!
Better go pay him.
I had an SID at a D1 school tell me that he owned the copyrights to my photos (that I took) because he let me in "his arena" to take them. The Fed. Judge disagreed.
So Daniel, the Million Dollar question! What is the book? |
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Daniel Brayack, Photographer
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Charleston | WV | USA | Posted: 4:09 PM on 04.30.08 |
->> I wanted to avoid shamless self promotion - so I kept that ambigious, but thanks for asking Allen.
-Dan |
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Daniel Brayack, Photographer
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Charleston | WV | USA | Posted: 5:49 AM on 05.01.08 |
->> Thanks Mark
=) |
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Walter Calahan, Photographer
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Westminster | MD | USA | Posted: 6:40 AM on 05.01.08 |
->> Daniel
Why don't you give your 'friend' a free book as payment? |
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Alan Look, Photographer
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Bloomington | IL | United States | Posted: 8:46 AM on 05.01.08 |
| ->> Guess it would have been pretty hard to trip that shot yourself with a remote. |
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Jason Chan, Photographer, Student/Intern
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Temple City | CA | USA | Posted: 2:05 AM on 05.02.08 |
->> I realize that the situation that started this thread was more half-joking, but in the spirit of just having taken my Copyright Law final, I just thought I'd point out that the Copyright Act 17 U.S.C. Sec 101 states:
"...A work is “fixed” in a tangible medium of expression when its embodiment in a copy or phonorecord, by or under the authority of the author, is sufficiently permanent or stable to permit it to be perceived, reproduced, or otherwise communicated for a period of more than transitory duration...."
Focus on "by OR UNDER THE AUTHORITY of the author" -- you could argue that, having contributed everything which would be a creative expression about the shot and done everything except push the shutter, the person clicking the shutter is not the author but rather is only fixing the work under the authority of the author (photographer).
I'm not a lawyer, this is not legal advice. |
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Daniel Brayack, Photographer
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Charleston | WV | USA | Posted: 5:23 AM on 05.02.08 |
| ->> I'd never want to be a Lawyer - thanks for that Law quote & interpretation Jason. |
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Alicia Wagner Calzada, Photographer
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San Antonio | TX | USA | Posted: 12:51 PM on 05.02.08 |
->> Dave,
Have you ever considered a career in writing law school final exams- your "hypo" has all the hallmarks! |
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