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Anyone with second jobs?
Bryon Houlgrave, Photographer
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Waukesha | Wi. | USA | Posted: 12:11 AM on 03.29.08 |
| ->> I've recently taken a second job at a downtown coffee shop to supplement my income and help upgrade my gear. Wondering if anyone else has a part-time job, and what you do. |
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Darren Whitley, Photographer
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Maryville | MO | USA | Posted: 12:46 AM on 03.29.08 |
->> I work fulltime as a university photographer and freelance on the side. The outside work allows me to maintain a kit of my own as well as build up a lighting kit, backgrounds etc.
Most importantly though, I've learned a lot from outside work because the university job is repetitive.
What I learn at work I use on the side. And much of what I do on the side allows me to be a better photographer at work.
For instance, I started using Express Digital at home. Meeting with athletes' parents was killing my schedule at work so I began using ED and they now have the opportunity they want to purchase photos.
While shooting a triathlon, I learned about using high speed synch on the Canon speedlights. I now use that when I can during post-game football celebrations.
After going through a frustrating period with poorly trained Wal-Mart one hour personnel, I began using MPix for my freelance photos. Now, I use MPix for my work stuff too.
At work I bought frames for a centennial project from American Frame. Now, I've begun using them for my clients as well.
On a side note, one of my co-workers is/was a Barista at Panera Bread before she took her design position at the university. Melinda has taught us how to use the expresso machine at work so we can make our own drinks. |
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Max Waugh, Photographer
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Bothell | WA | USA | Posted: 2:24 AM on 03.29.08 |
| ->> I am probably the same as some folks around here: photography IS the second job. The extra 20 hours a week I devote to my photography and side work doesn't pay the bills, but it keeps me sane after 40 dull hours a week at the job that does. ;) |
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Erin Schrad, Photographer, Assistant
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Glen Allen | VA | United States | Posted: 11:49 AM on 03.30.08 |
->> Photography is my second job, but also part of my first... I work as a graphic/web designer-photographer-communications person for a non-profit association. Photo stuff for work is mostly grip-and-grins and event photography. I freelance for other associations and non-profits that I cross paths with via the main job and shoot their events and then I pick up other sports and editorial work.
Main job doesn't supply me with gear, so freelance jobs allow me to pay for the stuff I want. If I didn't have my own stuff, I am sure they would supply me with a basic setup, but since I provide my own, they allow me flexible working hours so I can pick up side jobs during normal business hours. |
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Chuck Steenburgh, Photographer
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Lexington | VA | USA | Posted: 10:40 PM on 03.30.08 |
| ->> Ditto what Erin said... |
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Renay Johnson, Photographer, Assistant
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San Diego | CA | | Posted: 11:48 PM on 03.30.08 |
->> Bryon. I work a fulltime job to support myself until I start getting paid assignments. Right now, I work graveyards which really sucks. Last year, I signed on with a wireservice after they saw my work so the job is now in the way because there have been times where I get out of work Saturday morning only to get a few hours sleep before having to drive 2 hours, shoot and then drive back. Trying to get time off sucks because the managers only allow 2 people off at one time and they want us to "live" at the company. I almost need to find a pt job, but then that leaves me no time to shoot. One day photography will become my 2nd job. I started to follow my dream late in life so I need to work a FT day job. I'm okay with that as long as I am finally following my dream to be more than a hobbyist photographer.
I think quite a few people work some kind of other job to survive or buy equipment. I admire those who can make a living soley from photography. |
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Christopher Hanewinckel, Photographer, Assistant
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Escondido | CA | USA | Posted: 12:14 AM on 03.31.08 |
| ->> I think there are a lot of us out there who have to do photography as a second job. I also work a full time job and try to do the photo gig on the side. I went to college for photography and that is what I did throughout college. But when I moved back to San Diego, I realized how tough the market is here for photogs, so I found a full time job that helps pay the bills while I still push myself to get my name out there so maybe someday once I am noticed or even given a chance I can make a transition into a photo job. I look at it like this, I have 43 or so years to work, so I am willing to wait a little bit for something good to work out. |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 1:00 AM on 03.31.08 |
| ->> geezuz....I guess this is why the bidnez if going to s@#t. no offense but if you guys are skulking around doing what you do....just be up front...stick the knife in the chest of people who try and work for a living as PHOTOGRAPHERS. put down your little point and shoots.........because the technology is there and you are SO good...technology covers SO many flaws.......sorry rant mode off |
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Renay Johnson, Photographer, Assistant
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San Diego | CA | | Posted: 1:19 AM on 03.31.08 |
| ->> Chuck, I don't know why you are on a rant. The original poster just asked how many people worked another job. I don't know what your defect is, but I don't see how we are sticking a knife in you or anyone else's chest. We are obviously not taking food from your mouth. I've seen you go off on a rant before for no reason, must be something that you like to do. |
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Paul Quitoriano, Photographer
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Brooklyn | NY | USA | Posted: 1:57 AM on 03.31.08 |
->> I take weird side jobs. Focus groups on craigslist. most of them wont respond, but ive been paid $100 to develop one of the sims games by just saying how much i hated it and $250 for saying why i didnt go to the mall.
i also drank a pepsi for $5.
it all adds up. |
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Eric Canha, Photographer
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Not Listed | MA | United States | Posted: 8:23 AM on 03.31.08 |
->> I think that what Chuck was saying is that by working for a wire or paper AND having a second income to supplement your photography, you are in essence allowing the wires/papers to get away with paying fees that can't sustain full time photographers. If you are making $80K as an engineer and then taking $25 assignments, are you really furthering the profession?
The reality is that so many people WANT to be photographers or CALL themselves photographers that they are finding ways of doing it without having to live off their product. I may not have said that as well as I could but I'm sure that it will make sense if you read it twice.
I am a full time photographer and don't have a second job. |
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Darren Whitley, Photographer
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Maryville | MO | USA | Posted: 10:01 AM on 03.31.08 |
->> Maybe taking a staff job is the problem and not the freelance.
Why is it everyone with a staff job thinks it's everyone else killing the industry? When was the last time you got a raise worth writing home about? Is your salary even appropriate for the hours and hours of work you put in? Probably not. |
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Peter Zuzga, Photographer
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Waukesha | WI | USA | Posted: 10:23 AM on 03.31.08 |
->> Just so everyone knows, Bryon is a full time photojournalist at the Waukesha Freeman, a small daily outside Milwaukee, and instead of complaining about his lack of pay and lack of equipment he's taken a part time side job to save money for better gear. Lots of us started out in Bryon's shoes fresh out of school, really wanting to make this job a carreer and taking an entry level job with low pay and old battered gear. Instead of falling into the self pity trap and crying about his low pay and lack of good gear Bryon's doing what lots of us have had to do over the years and take a part time job and or freelance in order to stay in this great profession.
I am a full time news photographer, but have yet to meet a freelance job I don't like. |
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Alan Look, Photographer
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Bloomington | IL | United States | Posted: 11:02 AM on 03.31.08 |
| ->> I've had two - sometimes three incomes for most of my adult life and I make a better than average income from my primary role. There are part-timers and second imcomers in almost every profession I've ever crossed paths with - including attorneys and doctors. |
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Eric Canha, Photographer
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Not Listed | MA | United States | Posted: 11:30 AM on 03.31.08 |
| ->> For the record, I'm not a staffer anywhere. I am fully self employed as a photographer. |
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Marty Price, Photographer
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Concord | NC | USA | Posted: 11:33 AM on 03.31.08 |
->> I have feelanced for the past twenty years and photography is the only way I make my living. During some of the slow times I have thought about taking another (secondary job) to help with cash flow and buy extra equipment but work usually picks back up before I make that plunge. The main reason I haven't taken a side job is because I feel it might limit when I would be available for assignments.
I really don't understand the elitist attitude that many ft staffers seem to have toward freelancers as well as anyone else that works in the profession that doesn't fit the FT staffer role. And as far as the point and shooters sticking a knife in Chuck's chest, it is really the true professional freelancers like myself that are being hurt by the P&S crowd as papers use their free "contributed" images more and more.
I feel that this trend to use reader contributed photos is doing much more damage to the business than the true freelancers and part time shooters who charge appropriately. If you want to stop the onslaught of our profession, the FT staffers should be complaining about the dillution of their product by the publication they are working for while this is happening. The more they run these reader contibuted photos the less we are valued as photographers. I know of more than one organization that has asked for pictures of an event on line and then actually ran contributed photos from that event the next day. I am not talking about group and grins, some have used "contributed" photos for sports and spot news in the past few weeks in more than one large metro publication. This is a much bigger threat to the FT position than the true freelancers like myself.
The publication will continue to value its employees when it pays for the freelancers like myself but when it gets more and more of its content for free it will value its employees less and less. That is what we all need to rant about to our own publications. My $0.02 Marty |
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Debra L Rothenberg, Photographer
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New York | NY | USA | Posted: 11:41 AM on 03.31.08 |
->> OK-I don't understand what Chuck wrote, but then again half the things he writes about here I don't understand. Chuck-I don't know you but you come off as an angry person many times here.
Instead of ranting about people "blaming" individuals for killing the business, one should look at certain agencies or wire services that sell images for $49..or less.
I have heard so many people complaining about full time staff people. There's a lot to be said for having and KNOWING you have a steady paycheck, health benefits, maybe company equipment and a car. Or just that steady check, benefits-knowing if you get sick you still have a check, knowing you can vacation and have a check.
It took me 17 years to go freelance-I always had staff jobs, and I wasn't sure I would be able to do it.I have always liked the stability of knowing I had a check every week. Do I now wish I did it sooner? Sure, but I wasn't ready. Just like I wasn't ready to move into NYC a decade before I did.
People go at their own pace for things, and they have to find their way. Not everyone is able to make a lot of money in this profession right out of college. I have seen so many just give up. I had coffee with a young photographer last week who is discouraged and ready to give up. This is what I said-"if you really love this, if this is your real passion, your drug, your breath, you never give up. This goes with everything in life." I told her how I struggled when I was just starting out-not with the low pay I was making-I have always been great with money and I am not a shopaholic (unless it's photo realted) but I moved to so many places where I didn't know a single person for a job and sometimes it wasn't fun. My first day in one town and my car was pelted with eggs as they screamed "NJ go home." (Ahh-nice welcome!!) I also told her how it took me a long time to get where I am now.
The key is-NEVER GIVE UP.
DO NOT QUIT.
I KNOW why I am where I am today-getting the work I am getting, making the money I am making, and meeting some wonderful people along the way.
I didn't quit. I didn't give up.
My mother once told me something long ago that I really believe. She said if you really love something and really want to do it, you don't quit. |
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Mike Ullery, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Piqua | OH | USA | Posted: 12:53 PM on 03.31.08 |
->> Bryon,
What's wrong with having a second job? As many have stated here, they have a second job, as a photographer. What difference does it make if you reverse that?
I am in the unique position of having been a part-time photographer, then a full-time photographer, then a free-lancer, before taking a full-time staff job. It's kind of the reverse of what many here aspire to do. I still do free-lance when time allows, most importantly shooting for my aviation customers but the staff job allows for a steady paycheck.
Don't feel as if you have failed/are failing if you take a second job to buy equipment, etc. No matter how you look at it you are improving yourself and your situation. Your second job may offer contacts to give you even more photo business. As Debbie said, don't ever give up. Also, don't ever pass up the opportunity to promote your photography. Maybe the coffee shop can display some of your photos or allow you to put business cards on the counter. How many potential photo clients come to your coffee shop? Always look for the bright side in what your are doing.
We do what we do because we love it. I know that even after all these years, I still live and breathe to make photographs. If you are as passionate about photography as most of us, do what you have to do. And, if you are as much of a photo equipment geek as I know that I am and most of us are, by all means do whatever you have to do to feed the habit. |
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David Brooks, Photographer
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San Diego | CA | USA | Posted: 1:09 PM on 03.31.08 |
->> Debra-
I completely agree with you. Your candor on this board is inspiring. I can relate to your path and story in the sense that I took a step of faith, returning to school at the age of 27, with only a distant hope of becoming a staff photojournalist upon completion of school. But I think the career landscape for photojournalists is different now. Even though that was only 6 years ago, and I did earn that career, knowing what I know now, I'm not sure if I would take that same step. Forgive me, I am not trying to discourage anyone of their dream because I have that same dream yet current events, at my paper and across the country, have forced me to consider the, "what if's!"
A few weeks ago, we were invited to a job fair at a high school. We had gear and equipment and a monitor displaying our work in a loud gymnasium. I really didn't know what to tell these kids. What would you tell a high school student wanting to become a newspaper staffer? I would be honest yet hopeful. But the truth is... although there are positions out there, some papers are hiring but that number is infinitely smaller than the number of qualified shooters. Luckily they only asked about gear and, "...is it fun?!"
The funny thing is... I was hired because of my multimedia skills, skills I did not have before returning to school. People pontificate if video or multimedia will save the newspaper, I don't think so...it's just one piece in a very complicated puzzle, but it did save me and many others newly into this business..., all of my classmates that have staff jobs right out of school, with good pay and gear and for some,... a car, it was because of video. Actually, a good friend was hired solely as a still shooter at the Rocky Mountain News. If you can make it work and find satisfaction in what your photographing while wearing a different career hat, take pride in that. The more you shoot, the more you will shoot, because photo work begets more photo work.
I am a mostly hopeful person, but I think a good, hard look around at this industry is something all of us must do. And then, if that dream still aches inside of you, go ahead and jump in... after the initial temperature shock the water is great.
David |
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Bryon Houlgrave, Photographer
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Waukesha | Wi. | USA | Posted: 1:52 PM on 03.31.08 |
->> Wow, I didn't expect my first post as a ss.c member would generate so much response. This is awesome.
First of all, thanks for the replies. I wasn't necessarily seeking advice on second jobs, rather just wondering if anyone else had them and what they did. Personally I feel there is nothing wrong with a part time second job. I have no shame. I am a full time PJ at a smaller daily, and shoot with my own gear. Shooting is job numero uno, anything else is just extra. I'm not broke (all the time), but having a second job helps cover those little things, and is helping to update my gear.
Mike, I absolutely agree with you. The coffee shop is a great place to meet people, and come up with photo/story ideas. |
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Anthony Chapa, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Corpus Christi | Tx | US | Posted: 1:56 PM on 03.31.08 |
| ->> This is a interesting topic, I can see both sides to some of the posts on here, because for me, being in college doesn't allow for much time to have a job to pay for gear; I am ok with it though. I like what Debra and David said. I am only 19 and at a junior college and will be transferring in a year to its "big sister" and I think that to make photography happen, you just have to be motivated and willing to do what is necessary. I am freelancing for our paper here, circulation I do not know, but our city is about 240,000 pop and I feel pretty good to be shooting for the paper; having no previous freelance exp. I am constantly looking at pictures in papers and magazines and Getty/AP to see what kind of sports work people are shooting, and I think that keeps me in check of what kind of work I can do and what kind of work I should be able to do and go after a different style. I am looking forward to the future, cause I know it will be brighter. |
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Bradley Wakoff, Photographer
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Fort Collins | CO | USA | Posted: 3:23 PM on 03.31.08 |
->> Freelancers blaming staffers, staffers blaming freelancers...Mr. Hobbes, meet Mr. Kafka....Franz, this is Thomas...
The photo industry is contracting, partly because one of our main customers, the print news media, is also contracting. Contraction means that supply exceeds demand and prices fall. Suppliers who can't compete are forced to fold. So I've really got two points:
1. Diversifying (or being diversified) is sound business strategy in a downturn. Multiple, independent income streams provide some insulation from market forces. So, maintaining a second job makes a lot of business sense right now. In fact, some in the business community will argue that downturns present opportunity to diversify since costs are down.
2. Unlike, say, the stock photo industry, in the news biz, the contraction is NOT supply-driven. The problem is NOT that photo editors can choose among so much cheap and free content that they have no incentive to pay. This contraction is demand-driven. Our customers are going bust and can't afford our product. Take a look at your local daily...notice how thin it is? No ads, no money. No money, no content. Media professionals understand the value of professionally-produced images, but simply can't afford them. Every newspaper editor I've freelanced for has apologized when they tell me their rates.
The problem isn't low-ball stringers, soccer moms, or content-with-peanuts staffers. The problem is that our customers have no money and customers without money don't go shopping. |
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Bill Mitchell, Photographer
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Tempe | AZ | USA | Posted: 4:18 PM on 03.31.08 |
->> Re Chuck's rant:
Your comments are totally inappropriate and insulting to a sizeable number of SportsShooter members. I am one of those who do not do photography fulltime. For that, I do not owe anyone an apology. But I resent being characterized as a skulking point-and-shooter. I work very hard at what I do and I use professional equipment, just like you. I dare say that's the case with every SS member or else we would not have been accepted for membership.
I have never believed that I am taking work away from fulltime photographers. I developed my own niche (minor league baseball) and am fulfilling a need that most often is not being covered.
If you question my sincerity and dedication to what I do, I wish that you would have been with me one day last week when I spent 10 hours traipsing around spring training complexes, shooting parts of eight minor league games. I registered 10 miles on my pedometer that day. I know that I will sell many images from just that day alone, and that was only one of many days that I spent on the field during the spring. The time spent photographing that day doesn't include the countless hours I still need to spend in identifying the players, editing, uploading, etc., etc., not to mention the research I did figuring out who were the top prospects on the teams I was going to see. However, I did not see another photographer all day --- so whose chest have I stuck a knife in?
If you still question whether I, as a part-timer, belong in your club, please feel free to come to Arizona next June or July to shoot a rookie league day game when it's 115 degrees and the camera body gets so hot in the sun that it burns your hands. But I'll be there because there will be ballplayers for whom there's a market for their images.
From your profile it's obvious that you are a talented photographer. Instead of complaining about the decline in opportunities available to you and blaming the rest of us for taking away your work, I suggest that you instead get out and find new opportunities. Develop some new niche markets or something.
Now my rant mode can go off, too. |
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Nathan Pier, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Racine | WI | USA | Posted: 6:54 PM on 03.31.08 |
->> Bryon,
I did it... when I started off part time it was pretty much a must to work a second job. I worked full time third shift and then did the newspaper thing in whatever hours they asked me to be awake.
Being more than somewhat familiar with the market you are working in I feel for you. No one around here is getting paid much as a staffer unless they happen to be working downtown.
If you want, send me a message on my member page and I will offer you some additional insights on Old Man Conley and his evil empire.
N |
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Jody Gomez, Photographer
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Murrieta | CA | USA | Posted: 11:26 AM on 04.01.08 |
->> I am in the mortgage business and photography was my second job... until the mortgage industry imploded. Now photography is my one and only job.
I had a five year plan to transition into photography full time, but it got fast tracked by four years.
Yikes... |
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Joseph Zimmerman, Photographer
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Howard | Pa | USA | Posted: 1:42 PM on 04.01.08 |
->> "If you are making $80K as an engineer and then taking $25 assignments, are you really furthering the profession? " -Eric
Eric that is close to what I am with a few exceptions. I approached the local paper about freelance and they didn't really respond. So I went out and made my own product. I don't give photos away for free and wont put a full timer out of business by doing so, but I also wont quit what I do just because someone's full time job is photography. It's their job to put out a good product for the customer at a fair price. Because I have a full time job am I not allowed to be a photographer? I'm not allowed to make extra money? Who doesn't have a friend who helps them (paid or free)with their computer problems or car repairs or kid cutting their lawn, etc? Sure I don't have to make money, but I do charge the going rates. I think my photos are worthy and my website and content is growing. I'm even looking to expand into the general news and give the paper a run for their money. Its a lot of work and a challenge but I love a good fight.
Some people will spend money to save time, other people will spend their time to save money. Sit back and think about where these jobs are today: ash collectors, lamplighters, ice merchants, milk man, soot merchants, saddlers and harness makers, livery stable keepers, soap makers. Sure you may find a few scattered here and there but they are few. It sucks in a way but you have to make yourself a commodity and adapt to the market or get out of the way because the freight train is coming. Well, it might be if there are any of them left.
...
Sorry you feel that way Chuck and I love your photos but I'm not going to stop doing what I love to do.... |
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Eric Canha, Photographer
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Not Listed | MA | United States | Posted: 2:33 PM on 04.01.08 |
->> ....but I do charge the going rates....
...I don't give photos away for free...
...I'm even looking to expand into the general news...
Joe I'd say those 3 keep you off the hook. |
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Paul Nelson, Photographer
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Temperance | MI | USA | Posted: 2:34 PM on 04.01.08 |
->> Byron,
I think you'll find that most people have very impressive and unique backgrounds. I can't remember the exact # off the top of my head, but most folks change careers 5 or so times on average in their working years. There isn't a clearly defined path for every to reach their unique goals, so I bet your responses will be all over the place. I have a very strong skill set in IT and have gone to school for many many years to research and understand technology (and not just tools, but how it's applied). For me, photography would be overwhelming if it remained film-based, but once it went digital and knowing I have a very strong digital background, it was a perfect match. Now I can take one passion (computers) and effectively leverage it for a new one (photography). I have always had the creative spark, but it took this merger of technology to really make it work. Now I don't know why I didn't put more time into art and creative classes in my education, but hey, I got to this point and I love it.
About the transition to full-time shooting, I'd do it in a heartbeat, but it doesn't pay the mortgage or bills in our modern economy. If you want to be in control of your financial freedom, you have to do what's necessary to meet the goals. IT is in very heavy demand (when you have experience, education, and certification), but running with photography as a second job is building up another skill that diversifies my offerings (I totally agree w/skill diversification). I have a passion for both and I'm pursuing both. I don't know why anyone would argue about doing TWO things I'm passionate about. I'm sure everyone has lots of passions and goals they're trying to reach. It's especially sweet when they are similar in nature. |
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Dave Amorde, Photographer
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Lake Forest | CA | USA | Posted: 3:27 PM on 04.01.08 |
->> I am willing to write off Mr. Liddy's remarks to a few too many Hurricanes, since he mentioned in another post that he was partying in New Orleans. But even if he wrote the post stone-cold-sober, he's still just one man barking at the moon. What is far more disturbing is that there are almost as many "Informatives" as there are "Inappropriates". I read his post twice, and I wasn't informed of a damn thing - except perhaps about Chuck's state of mind.
I have another job (software engineer), but I have a difficult time labeling one or the other as the "second" job. Both consume a great deal of time; I am passionate about both; both contribute significantly to my total household income.
Virtually every profession, from photographer to engineer to lawyer to physician, is populated by a significant percentage of individuals who contribute their services on either a gratis or graduated-scale basis. Engineers stay awake nights to write "open source" software, lawyers and physicians have various non-profits to "compete" with, and photographers have the "guy with camera". No matter what kind of labor you provide, there will always be some that provide it as a labor of love, and there isn't a damn thing Chuck or anyone else can or should do about it.
As for the photography marketplace in general, it is important to remember that there are always two sides to a transaction: the producer and the consumer. The "guy with camera" as a producer is an anonymous entity, but the consumers of his products are anything but anonymous, and they are the ones that photographers should focus their collective energies one. These consumers accept the products of GWC's for one or both of two reasons:
1) The GWC's product is as good as or better than the pros, at an obviously better price, or
2) The GWC's products' cost/VALUE ratio is better than the pros - enough so to justify (in their minds) the transaction, even though the professional product is superior.
The only way to address these two concerns is to produce a product so superior to the GWC's of the world that the consumer feels COMPELLED to do business with you. In short, your product must DEMAND at least your rate - and likely more - or the GWC will win that battle every time.
Attacking reason #1 is pretty straightforward. Unfortunately, reason #2 is a complex and ever-changing scenario. We may truly be approaching a time where top-notch photography is relegated solely to fashion rags, art galleries, and coffee-table books; that news providers can no longer justify the cost to purchase, journalists can no longer justify the cost to produce, and news images come solely from camera phones and frame grabs. If or when that happens it will truly be a sad day, but it certainly won't be the fault of those who pursue photography as a "second" job. |
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John Taggart, Photographer
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Philadelphia | PA | USA | Posted: 3:48 PM on 04.01.08 |
| ->> Chuck, seriously, why so angry all the time ? dont you work for a good paper ? are you not happy ? |
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John Middlebrook, Photographer
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Frederick | MD | US | Posted: 4:28 PM on 04.01.08 |
->> I agree with all of these posts, but in bits and pieces. I would assume that the majority of the folks that are on this site did not just have their first or current job just fall from the sky and land on their laps. They had to start somewhere.
I got the "bug" years ago when my first born started playing sports and was not born with the photographers “chip” in 1967. That should not matter and stop treating those of us that didn't like we have some communicable disease. I am on my second career since graduating from college, both completely different fields that I spent nine years in each, and I am great with that. Photography is next for me and I have been busting my tail to move through the ranks. I don't make a lot of money freelancing and I am OK with it, the $$ will come someday and it probably will not be what I make now, who cares. We do this because we love it!
Every weekend in the fall, referees at youth or high school football games go to work for pennies and has a full time job. Do the professional referees sit at their computers and blog about “those damn refs at the high school level are ruining the profession by making $50 per game”? Umpires, nurses, physicians, others, all have “second jobs”. Maybe not even in their line of work!
My money is just as green as the full timers here and if I have spent $15,000 on equipment, regardless of what "job" paid for it that should not matter. My company is incorporated, my equipment is insured and where I drive to work every day should not matter. I know that some of you may not believe this but there is plenty of work to go around. I turn down things in this area all the time, a lot of them because I learned (the hard way) that they don't pay well. Is that wrong too? I have learned my lessons in all of my jobs because I am smart and read what other very successful people have taught me, some even on this board.
This is about doing what you love and it too bad that there seems to be this line between so many of the people in this industry. Heck, let’s all just get along and hug next time we run into each other. |
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Stew Milne, Photographer
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Providence | RI | USA | Posted: 6:46 PM on 04.01.08 |
->> I'm just wondering why so many IT professionals are also part-time photographers? It is unbelievable how many software guys I know who also shoot on the weekend. Is it the fact now that cameras are just computers that capture images?
I just had this discussion today with a friend who used to be a high-end industrial photographer in Germany, now he is a skilled carpenter. Before digital, the guys pretending to be photographers were lawyers and doctors, b/c they had the money to buy all the nice gear. Now it seems that IT guys have replaced them. Both make tons of money and can buy all the fancy gear to become a "professional".
Oh, how I long for the days of manual focus. It separated the pros from the wannabes.
Oh yah, I'm a full-time freelance photographer. I've lost way too many jobs to some joe-shmoe who'll shoot for $25 and give up all his rights. |
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Bill Mitchell, Photographer
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Tempe | AZ | USA | Posted: 6:57 PM on 04.01.08 |
->> "Oh, how I long for the days of manual focus. It separated the pros from the wannabes."
Still another random uninformed comment from one of the "full-timers" on this board! Stew, why do you assume that only full-time photographers know how to manually focus. I switch that button on my lens when the need arises. And yes, my images are properly focused without that new-fangled autofocus thing.
It's interesting that most of the well-thought, intelligent dialogue in this thread is coming from the alleged "skulking point-n-shooters." I guess that's what happens when you let us part-timers into the club --- there goes the neighborhood. |
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Christopher Koutsis, Photographer
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huntington | ny | USA | Posted: 7:13 PM on 04.01.08 |
->> What's UpChuck... Let us know how you really feel. I'm not as graceful and kind with words as Debra...but here goes:
Your input is simply polluting these boards. I believe it's ignorance like yours that is ruining this "bidnez." What a damn shame, I was ooohhh'ing and ahhhh'ing at that picture of the dolphin on your member page the other day...Now I could just "put a knife in my chest" for giving you the time of day and sharing your photos with others. Just goes to show you don't need class to be a good photographer.
No one is putting a "knife in your chest." But you sure did a wonderful job at shooting yourself in the foot today!
PART-TIMER ALL THE WAY!!!!!!!!!! Will be for the rest of my life... Know why? Because I paid big bucks for this stuff and deserve every penny. Welcome to the real world, Chuck... It's call competition...GET USED TO IT! |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 7:44 PM on 04.01.08 |
->> ouch! and some of you folks thought I was angry? after reading some of these replies I would think there are a LOT of folks who need some anger management. the thing is I don't freelance. but I watch every day as many of my friends try to make ends meet as FULL TIME photographers and many of them lose work to, ahhh, let me choose my phrasing a little more carefully since some can't take my blunt words...folks who buy top end equipment and DON"T need the money...they want to say...."ohh I shoot (insert your favorite team here) I get to go to the games and sit on the floor." or "sure I'll shoot that event for you and I'll do it for a bag of fritos"...sorry some of you don't get that. there are plenty of those folks out there....you know it and I know it. I won't address all the nasty comments directed at me on this thread cause you don't last long in the newspaper business with thin skin and I've been around a long time. and, no I am not an angry guy, actually I'm pretty happy most of the time it's just some of these posts are pretty ridiculous (including mine quite often). what really struck me as being sad was the kid Bryon, who started the thread, even has to THINK about getting another job because newspaper photogs are payed so poorly.Christopher, does your above post mean you don't want the special edition "I wanna be like chuck t-shirt"?
man THAT is such a bummer! |
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John Taggart, Photographer
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Philadelphia | PA | USA | Posted: 8:11 PM on 04.01.08 |
->> I think the shirts would be a great idea Chuck, nothing wrong with a little self promotion. Bad press can be good press and make sure your number is on it ;)
HAH!! finally a joke on here, sorry I had to break the negative vibe (just for a minute, atleast I hope)
hehe
Cheers
- JT |
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Aaron Bernstein, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Bloomington | IN | USA | Posted: 8:15 PM on 04.01.08 |
| ->> People who operate outside the industry may not be completely aware of it, but in short Chuck is correct on all counts. Disagree with his tone if you want, but the glut of "freelancers" who do not rely on photography for the bulk of their income and are often ill informed about the true cost of doing business in this industry undercuts established professionals of all types. It's one thing to work a second job while starting off to make ends meet, it entirely another to moonlight from your job working for peanuts. At least take a close look at some of the business information available on the web at sites like http://www.editoralphoto.com or http://www.asmp.org. |
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Stew Milne, Photographer
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Providence | RI | USA | Posted: 8:46 PM on 04.01.08 |
->> I too feel sorry for Byron and any other staffer or full-time freelancer who must resort to getting a second job in order to survive. It's very sad. When I was graduating, I applied to many staff jobs and eventually turned down a job that was going to pay me $12/hour. I just recently turned down a job offer in the $30K range in Texas. I informed the chief photographer, who I worked for while in college (one of 4 jobs I had in college), what I was making now as a freelancer and his response was "I've been working at this paper for 25 years and don't make that kind of money".
Bill, I'm sorry I lumped you in with most of the shooters I know who only know how to use auto focus. Many of the new breed of people wanting to take photos only know auto focus camera and don't have a clue which was their focus ring turns.
It's hard to argue that fact that auto focus and digital cameras have made it easier for the average joe to take good photos. Many of these people would not have made an in focus photo to save their lives if they had a manual focus camera.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again; just because I own a wrench doesn't make me a professional plumber. Owning a camera doesn't make you a professional photographer either. If my pipes burst, I'm calling a professional, not the guy next door who has more fancy tools than me.
Thick-skinned,
-sM |
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Bill Mitchell, Photographer
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Tempe | AZ | USA | Posted: 9:54 PM on 04.01.08 |
->> To Chuck and Stew,
I understand your frustrations with the business. Yeah, it must suck for freelancers to make a living in this business. But are you really lashing out at the right audience? You've both questioned the rights of anyone not doing photography full time to be on SportsShooter. Maybe not directly, but go back and read what you wrote. We are not the problem. If you've got an issue with point-n-shooters going out and taking away business from full-time shooters, then air your complaints on dpreview or fredmiranda ... not here at SportsShooter. We all had to be sponsored and shown professionalism in our work in order to become members. Everyone has a different professional and financial situation ... you can't paint every SportsShooter member with the same brush.
I joined SportsShooter to increase my skills and to make new contacts. It's paid me back much, much more than the meager yearly membership fee that I've paid. But I expect to be treated just like every other member ... as a professional ... and I treat every other member the same way.
No, I'm not thin-skinned. But I just didn't expect that as a three-year member of SportsShooter and a published photographer I'd have to defend myself against your comments just because I have another job besides photography. I don't believe that's what the founders of SportsShooter intended when they started this site. |
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Dave Amorde, Photographer
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Lake Forest | CA | USA | Posted: 10:12 PM on 04.01.08 |
| ->> Chuck, what was offensive about your original post was your blanket assumption that all part-timers either have no talent, or no business sense. Sorry dude, but you couldn't be more wrong. I'm sure there are plenty of part-timers like that, but certainly not all. I'm also sure that there are PLENTY of full-time pros who are just as bad or worse. |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 10:52 PM on 04.01.08 |
| ->> okay, dave. first off, if my post came across like that it's my fault....but........psstt...lemme put this in a post for the first time that I've seen, and since I've become the pariah of late I'll say it.....there seems to be a huge number of members of this site with no clue to what we, professionals do. whether you are a photojournalist or a full time freelancer there are a LOT of folks on this site who don't get it. oh yeah, they might have the top of the line equipment and "like" taking pictures...but....you get what I'm saying. I'm not speaking with any authority here so take from it what you want....but I joined this site many years ago because it had PROFESSIONAL photographers who do what I do. okay, not all are photojournalists, I got over that because quite frankly a lot of freelancers have given me insight to things I was clueless about. but the blanket "I was sponsored and paid my $25 just doesn't wash in my book. if you can't figure out your autofocus isn't working because you forgot to turn it on....well give me a break. not busting the chops of the fine fellows who started this site but if you wanna let anyone who has a "sponsor" and $25 to join we get what we pay for....inane threads and folks who get insulted when some semblance of truth is passed on. and you are right there is plenty of blame to sling around, bad staffers, bad freelancers, but there are bad folks in every profession. I didn't blanket everyone as bad talent and no business sense....I was speaking to a different thing...we might all be photographers but just as we had all those ethical discussions a few years ago...some of us are in entirely different worlds. |
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Christopher Koutsis, Photographer
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huntington | ny | USA | Posted: 12:07 AM on 04.02.08 |
->> "geezuz....I guess this is why the bidnez if going to s@#t. no offense but if you guys are skulking around doing what you do....just be up front...stick the knife in the chest of people who try and work for a living as PHOTOGRAPHERS. put down your little point and shoots.........because the technology is there and you are SO good...technology covers SO many flaws.......sorry rant mode off"
You preach of professionalism, or at least "professional photographers"... Do you know how hypocritical you this sounds with your poor choice of words and unprofessional behavior? It's not that I can't agree with one or two points you've made, but I sure as hell can't support the gigantic soap box you're standing on. The industry is shit? Really? Is it shit, or have you just had to work a little harder these days? Jobs are difficult no matter what field your in. Surely you don't truly believe this industry is shit...if that's true why are you still here? It's probably because you love what you do.
Just try being polite...It's really not that hard. Have an opinion...hell, even have an opinion that others don't agree with...Just don't be so crude in your explanation. |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 12:25 AM on 04.02.08 |
->> chris, is that a long winded way of saying you don't want the t-shirt?
sorry I'm obviously not in someone of your esteemed class:
"Because I paid big bucks for this stuff and deserve every penny. "
and how many times are you going to copy and paste what I wrote? oh wait, YOU want THAT on your t-shirt! okay...what size do you wear? oh...I already know that after reading what you wrote.....extra large...since you get paid "the big bucks" |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 12:37 AM on 04.02.08 |
| ->> sorry for the sarcasm....although I DO love it so! and bill....this is my whole point on the thread...why in the world would you think anything I wrote was pointed towards you? or anyone else...I didn't name names....I made general comments...there seem to be a lot of folks who feel like I was pointing the finger at them... hmmmmmmmmmm.......curious, very curious. |
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Christopher Koutsis, Photographer
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huntington | ny | USA | Posted: 12:43 AM on 04.02.08 |
| ->> Chuck... Your intelligence is shining through and through here... I said I "PAID" big bucks for the gear. Read s l o w l y. It helps you understand what people are talking saying. |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 12:47 AM on 04.02.08 |
| ->> my bad! another knife through the heart. I may not make it through the night. thanks chris...I have obviously met my match. you are a shining bright light for all of us. your wisdom amazes me....so do you want that t-shirt or not? 8) |
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Dave Amorde, Photographer
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Lake Forest | CA | USA | Posted: 12:48 AM on 04.02.08 |
->> "is that a long winded way of saying you don't want the t-shirt? "
OMG! I split a gut and spit Diet Coke all over my brand new Dell 22" Widescreen! Dammit Liddy, now YOU are costing ME money! I told you it wasn't just the P&S guys... |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 12:55 AM on 04.02.08 |
| ->> dammit dave! you just made me scare my friggin cats with the giant laugh you GAVE me! now THIS is what this site is supposed to be about!!!!!! and listen, some advice (not that I have experience with this) but NEVER NEVER have drinks near your 'puter!!!! HHAHAHAAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!! |
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John Germ, Photographer
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Wadsworth | Oh | USA | Posted: 12:46 PM on 04.02.08 |
->> To: all the newspaper and freelancers
From: An IT guy with a second job as a photographer
Subject: You dont have to like it but learn to deal with it.
Look, I understand your point of view. Really I do. In the last 3 years I've traveled to India twice because IT development is being done more and more over there because (are you ready for this??) - they can do it cheaper. Not as well. But as a business, companies have determined the work can be done 'good enough' - i.e. the reduction in quality is not enough to overcome the benefit in cost reduction. At least based upon what they're seeing so far. And, with more and more practice those IT guys in India are getting better. Within 15 years they'll be as good as what we have in America - maybe better. Because they're smart, well educated and hard working. They just lack experience.
Are you starting to see any similarities here?
You dont have to like the fact that things are moving this way in photography. But the fact you dont like it doesn't mean it is going to change. The DSLR revolution has unleashed a glut of supply on the market. And people in demand will - if they are good business men - do a cost-benefit analysis. Now, as another poster pointed out you are in a competitive market. Something many people have not been used to. So, you must either increase the value of your product or diversify.
Again, I understand you dont like it. I didn't like it when it happened to my industry. But not liking it doesn't change reality. The only question is whether or not you can adapt to the new world. Trying to cling to "the way it used to be" is a guaranteed way to eventual unemployment.
So it doesn't make much sense to lement the fall of your job security. It's gone. The more interesting question - the one you should spend your energy trying to answer is - what are you going to do to adapt?
For my part, I re-tooled in my career. Changed my focus to business knowledge and business analysis. Something a lot harder to off-shore.
For the record - I charge what my market will bear - no more no less. My time is valuable to me. It isn't worth undercutting prices for the 'privilege' of photographing something. If I'm going to be paid I'm going to be paid the going rate or they're not getting it from me.
But that really doesn't matter. Like it or not, the tightly controlled society of professional photographers is now an open membership. The doors cant be closed. Either learn to fit in the new club or you'll find yourself pushed out the back door. I know people who have lost their jobs in IT to outsourcing but few of them do I feel sorry for. Many were victims of having their heads buried in the sand. They wanted things to stay the way it always was. Rather than taking charge of their own career and making sure they were indispensible in the market place - either by being so valuable to their current employer or re-tooling so they had a skill in demand by other employers.
So, time to pull your heads out of the sand. It might not be right or fair but it's true and it is unstopable.
Sincerely,
A photographer who happens to be an IT guy because it pays the bills. |
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Nick Doan, Photographer
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Scottsdale | AZ | USA | Posted: 12:56 PM on 04.02.08 |
->> "You dont have to like the fact that things are moving this way in photography. But the fact you dont like it doesn't mean it is going to change. The DSLR revolution has unleashed a glut of supply on the market. And people in demand will - if they are good business men - do a cost-benefit analysis. Now, as another poster pointed out you are in a competitive market. Something many people have not been used to. So, you must either increase the value of your product or diversify."
Just so I make sure I understand. If I become a worse photographer, and produce worse photographs, but manage to take on lots of poor clients, I will be diversifying, and increasing market share. And, thus be considered a successful photographer?
If this is the idea that any of you have about how this business is going (or worse, want to take advantage of it), I'm not so sure this site is the best place for you.
I'd rather open a vein then agree with Chuck Liddy...but when the man makes valid points it's hard to argue with. |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 1:14 PM on 04.02.08 |
->> john, you are 100% correct. but the thing that everyone has been complaining about on these threads for the past couple of years is your statement here:
"they can do it cheaper. Not as well. But as a business, companies have determined the work can be done 'good enough' - i.e. the reduction in quality is not enough to overcome the benefit in cost reduction"
and although it doesn't seem to be affecting you right now....remember what you posted three years from now when little 15 year old tommy with his 30 megapixel, 60 fps, iso 25 million, $30 point and shoot takes away your added income. that's the bottom line of these kinds of threads. this isn't as some have said, about competition or being afraid of competition, anyone who says some GWC who has a full time job needs to charge as much as someone who makes their living shooting photos is , quite frankly, full of malarkey. it's gravy. it's ADDED income. you can charge what you like. and yeah there's a lot of chest beating on here...."I charge the going rate because I'm very good at what I do... it doesn't matter that I make over $100 grand a year at my REAL job." that also is a load. the point of these threads is that most working professionals don't have their heads "buried in the sand". they're trying to make ends meet with everyone "being" a photographer" now. one of the things that I was trying to get across in this thread and so many took offense at was I wasn't pointing any fingers at anyone specifically (although some folks took it that way) I hate to be the one to say it but there ARE folks out there who read the sportsshooter threads and there ARE members themselves who do some of the things we're talking about which are killing the business. I work for a newspaper and re-tool all the time, audio, video, soundslides...it's a fact of life.....but why should someone who had dedicated their life to shooting photos be forced to work another job because an advanced hobbyist with money decides they want to get in on the action..and undercut the market....because in essence that is what this thread was about. |
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