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|| SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board
PSO Shooters..Let's Talk Pt2
Erik Anderson, Photographer
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Kansas City | MO | | Posted: 10:58 PM on 11.27.07 |
->> I still haven't seen anything. I followed up prior to the holiday and in true form letter format was told 'wait a couple weeks'. Those who have info should spill it! :)
I'm guessing by the posts that there are multiple events (up to 3?). Is the money the same for each? |
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Dennis Wierzbicki, Photographer
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Plainfield | IL | USA | Posted: 11:10 PM on 11.27.07 |
->> Donald -
"I have a concern with the Photo Galleries, the have posted only 10 images from each football game. it seams like a hard way to sell images if all the images are not being posted."
I think you'll find the rest of your images if you look under the "Boys Sports/Football/Varsity" link on the middle of your school's page, and all the games will be listed, then click on the "photos" link aside each game. What you're seeing are the 10 "Shots of the Week" for each game (not sure who decides these are the best ten, but I have not agreed with the shots displayed at all). I think this is REALLY clumsy, and makes it too hard to find the images for a given game. Definitely not an elegant way to navigate a site.
Erik - call or email your Media Manager to find out what's up. Some markets and schools are late - PSO is a little dependent on the schools to provide event schedules and not all have done this. Maybe yours is one of these? Or maybe PSO is just late. Only way to know this is to call them directly.
Rick, sorry you feel that way. Good luck to you. |
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Dennis Wierzbicki, Photographer
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Plainfield | IL | USA | Posted: 11:13 PM on 11.27.07 |
| ->> That's weird. Somehow my post ended up BEFORE Donald's and Rick's, although I actually posted AFTER they did. Huh? |
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Donald Montague, Photographer
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Orlando | FL | | Posted: 11:20 PM on 11.27.07 |
| ->> Dennis if it that had for us to find all of the images, imaging trying to tell a parent where they are so that they could look and possibly buy them. good luck |
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Dennis Wierzbicki, Photographer
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Plainfield | IL | USA | Posted: 11:28 PM on 11.27.07 |
->> Donald - you are correct, and you need to tell your PSO person that the navigation is horrible. For the most part, I like the new Web site better than the old one, but something making actually finding images from a given sport and given game is unfathomable. It's like they didn't even do any beta-testing of the site with parents or athletes.
I've had several parents tell me they made the same mistake you made (and I also made when I first went to the site). Make sure you give this message to PSO loud and clear. |
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Bryan Hulse, Photographer
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Highlands Ranch | Co | USA | Posted: 11:28 PM on 11.27.07 |
->> I’m sure we will find out more about compensation once we get more answers. They originally said 3 games per week, but my media manager told me to pick 2.
Also, regarding the profit sharing, I would rather make a nice day rate than profit sharing. Too much competition here in Colorado to sell many photos consistently. But I guess I would be OK either way.
“It's a red tag sale on photography labor”
I have to disagree. I have spoken to several photogs that cover football for newspapers and their rate is MUCH less than my rate for PSO, even with our reduced rate during this football season. Yes, they don’t have the image quota that we do. But with good shooting and efficient post processing I still believe I am coming out ahead. I believe THEY are being taken advantage of more than me.
I also shoot other schools that aren’t linked to PSO on my own, and barely make any money. I mostly do it for fun. Every school here in Colorado has tons of booster parents, and photogs, shooting on the sidelines. Over saturation means little money. I believe working for PSO is a good deal all around and I am glad they are keeping us in mind. |
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Rick Rowell, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Vista | CA | USA | Posted: 11:31 PM on 11.27.07 |
| ->> If this doesn't tell you something about how these people are conducting business, then nothing will. They have enough people working for half the money. So why would they pay anyone any more money. It's a red tag sale on photography labor. You people who are taking this deal need to stop and think about how it will effect other photographers trying to make a living from or just trying to get paid fairly for their labor. |
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Donald Montague, Photographer
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Orlando | FL | | Posted: 11:43 PM on 11.27.07 |
->> they have budgeted $1,800 per school to cover a minimum of 15 events before the end of the year. but only 3 a week. of course they don't give it to you until the end of November. going to be tough to get in 3 events this week to met the 15 events in the next 4 and a half weeks.
also it sounds like they want less and less, now were down to 50-75 images an event ( great) but don't be surprised if the pay per event is down too.
I have a concern with the Photo Galleries, the have posted only 10 images from each football game. it seams like a hard way to sell images if all the images are not being posted. |
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Rick Rowell, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Vista | CA | USA | Posted: 5:11 AM on 11.28.07 |
->> Lets see, $1800.00 for 15 events. That breaks down to $120.00 per event. Wow, were do I sign up. They don't put up all of the photos at one time. They don't put them up in a timely manner. They have a difficult site to navigate. They want you do do all of the editing, sizing and color correction etc.... Drive to and from the school in question. Use your cameras and lenses as well as batteries for your flash etc... All of this for $120.00 per game when they were paying $300.00 last season. At least that's what I was receiving for each game. After subtracting taxes and expenses I was clearing about $200.00 per game. How much of that $120.00 do you think you are going to be able to keep? It's not how I "feel" that counts, It's what I known to be a fact. In any part of this country these are very low wages for quality professional photography. They tell people on their site that they use "PROFESSIONAL" photographers. A "PRO" would not take this new deal. I almost did not take the deal last year and missed a few games because of time conflicts with some of my other clients that paid better.
Bryan,are you talking to staff or freelancers, because those are two different animals all together. Apples and oranges as to how they are compensated. Most newspaper photographers only stay long enough to get a good photo or two and then move on to the second half of some other game across town. They are not being asked to shoot 75 to 150 images and stay for the whole game so they can shoot the scoreboard with the final score. Just because you think their situation is worse than yours doesn't mean that your being compensated properly either. Every photographer that received notice of this new compensation deal from PSO only days before the new season started, should have told them to go pound sand. I said it before and I'll say it again. This is a bad deal for everyone. I don't judge on what they say but what they deliver. So far that's been less than what they delivered last year. Promises, promises. How many of those promises have they delivered on so far? You can put all the lipstick you want on this pig, but it's still a pig. I don't understand how you people don't see that your not being treated fairly or professionally by PSO. After telling me that I was one of the best photographers they had last year, then contacting me by email just days before the new season started to let me know that they could only pay half as much as last year for just about the same amount of work. I'm supposed to think that's alright? NOT!!! I'm not busting my ass for people who don't appreciate quality work and effort. |
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Dennis Wierzbicki, Photographer
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Plainfield | IL | USA | Posted: 6:48 AM on 11.28.07 |
->> Rick - It's your right to have an opinion, and even to share that opinion here, but I'd argue you that a public forum like this may not be the appropriate place to pass judgement on the value of what other people are doing.
It's patently obvious you (and a few others) have a burr under your saddle when it comes to PSO. I'm sorry about this since I don't like to see anyone as angry as you clearly are.
If you don't want to shoot for them, fine - then don't. If you want to tell them to "pound sand", go right ahead. However, don't presume to know me (and my personal or professional situation) well enough to tell me what I should do with my business, and I won't tell you what you should do with yours, OK? How I choose to pursue my business is literally that: my business - not yours.
I respect your decision not to shoot for PSO, and would never try to dissuade you from pursuing the course of action you have.
As I have stated over and over on the previous thread (and even above, in this one), I'm not enthralled with everything this company is doing. However, I am communicating with their representatives (as are other shooters whom I know) to try and make things better for me, and indirectly for other photogs who choose to stick it out. I encourage every PSO shooter to do the same. If you have problems, be honest with them and tell them. If they don't resolve things to your satisfaction, tell them again. If things still don't work out, and you've lost that lovin' feeling, then go your own way, and good luck to you. |
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Chad McCan, Photographer
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Liberty | MO | USA | Posted: 8:56 AM on 11.28.07 |
->> You can all thank people like Dennis for your current situation. I think all of you have played a part in screwing yourselves. If everyone would have told them "We aren't working for less than half pay compared to last year" in the beginning, we wouldn't be having this conversation. But, as usual, no one stuck to their guns or even pitched a good fit. Now you getting what you asked you for.
Dennis, you just ran "your business" into the ground and you are still glowing about it.
PSO is done. It's toast, finished. Wasserman has plenty of ways to ruin their reputation, why do they need this heacache. They won't be around next year. |
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Dennis Wierzbicki, Photographer
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Plainfield | IL | USA | Posted: 9:31 AM on 11.28.07 |
->> Hey, Chad.
Good to hear from you. Welcome back. |
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Bryan Hulse, Photographer
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Highlands Ranch | Co | USA | Posted: 9:41 AM on 11.28.07 |
->> Wow! First of all, it amazes me that some people feel the need to be such butt heads on this forum. Anyone in the world can read this public forum, so I would think folks would be more civil for the sake of possible future business, if nothing else.
Second, just in case anyone really cares, the new model will fit nicely for me.
1) Weddings and portraits are my main business. Shooting High School sports is for fun, and a little extra income.
2) The school is less than ½ mile away. I can walk if I want.
3) PSO is recommending we cover only ½ of a game, and stack a JV and Varsity game back to back. And, we don’t have to deliver as many photos. So, I can set up my lights just once for 2 games (for basketball for example) and shoot the equivalent of 1 game time wise, and make twice the money Rick deduced in his email. That breaks down to about $50 to $60 bucks per hour including quick post processing. It's all about an hourly rate for me.
4) PSO gives money back to the AD department of our school. In spite of what others on this forum may think, our school loves PSO. And I am happy to be a part of that.
So my choices are:
a) Stay at home on a cold winter mid-week evening and read these idiot posts and watch TV.
b) Go shoot high school sports I love, at the school my son attends, and make a decent hourly rate doing so.
It’s all about supply and demand. Every yahoo in town wants to buy a 70-200 lens and shoot sports and try and sell to parents in a limited market. If I can make a decent rate, and shoot these same sports, it’s a go for me.
It also amazes me that total strangers can assume they know what is best for my business, goals and objectives.
I guess it is all about perspective |
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Jeff Martin, Photographer
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wellington | OH | usa | Posted: 10:02 AM on 11.28.07 |
->> "1) Weddings and portraits are my main business. Shooting High School sports is for fun, and a little extra income."
Bryan, please don't take this a an attack on you. It's not.
However, this is the problem we all face trying to make decent $ from shooting sports. Bryan or any booster dad/mom has a perfect right to undercut your price or even give away images. It sucks to be us in this case. When even pro shooters like Bryan take this position the battle is lost. I would guess (and could be wrong), that when Bryan's wedding business begins to drop off in a major way (and it will) from this type of competition, he may see things differently. PSO is apparently counting on shooters like Bryan or booster dads for content. They are in business to make money for themselves. As long as they can secure content for the current compensation, why would they raise it? If sales or market share drops because of quality concerns, they might try paying more to attract better shooters. Then again, they might just throw in the towel and decide there is not enough cash flow in an operation like this to interest them.
You can't compete with these people on price point. You have to offer something else or cover events that don't have the competition. |
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Bryan Hulse, Photographer
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Highlands Ranch | Co | USA | Posted: 10:29 AM on 11.28.07 |
->> I personally think it is crazy to think the wedding business will dry up just because Uncle Joe can afford a nice camera. It has taken me years of hard work, training, experimenting, tens of thousands of dollars in equipment, mistakes, lighting, the list goes on and on.
The wedding clients I have seek me out. Most have a good understanding on what it takes to deliver the goods for their wedding. I feel no threat from a weekend warrior with a new DSLR.
Regarding sports, what is the correct rate? Many on this forum seem to think they know. You don’t think $60 bucks per hour is a decent rate? I think it’s a great rate. If I could make that much on all of my endeavors, I would be in the $120,000/year range. Not too shabby in my book. Maybe you have higher expectations? Doesn’t everyone have their line?
I’ve been on the other end. I developed a successful dirt bike website that now supports 3 people full time. I got out because it was all consuming, almost sent me to bankruptcy, and I just couldn’t take it any more. It’s actually nice to shoot, deliver, and wash my hands of it.
All I can add is, there must be some HIGH PAID photogs on this site to discount that PSO rate. Interesting because when I attended SSA IV last spring, many were starving students. |
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Donald Montague, Photographer
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Orlando | FL | | Posted: 10:42 AM on 11.28.07 |
->> Let’s stop all the fighting amongst us and turn our anger back on PSO.
As for PSO with all this work in Dec what happens on Jan 1st? |
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Erik Anderson, Photographer
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Kansas City | MO | | Posted: 10:51 AM on 11.28.07 |
->> Donald,
If the Interm Plan (Part III: The Undead) doesn't arrive after patiently waiting until Jan 1st. Just wait longer! ;-) |
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Bryan Hulse, Photographer
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Highlands Ranch | Co | USA | Posted: 10:52 AM on 11.28.07 |
->> Ha! Thanks Don! :)
I thought this new agreement starts in January? At least that's what they told me.
We don't have any sports going on in December, so I am out of luck until '08. |
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Ian L. Sitren, Photographer
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Palm Springs | CA | USA | Posted: 10:55 AM on 11.28.07 |
->> "You don’t think $60 bucks per hour is a decent rate? I think it’s a great rate. If I could make that much on all of my endeavors, I would be in the $120,000/year range."
There is the mistake. And this is not an individual criticism. It is very common. By example, you get a job that pays you $800 and only takes you three hours to shoot. A quick delivery that you assign an hour to (for no special reason) and you have $200 per hour. Figuring a 40 hour work week and you are making $400,000 a year with two weeks vacation. You decide that you only need to get more jobs to make it work.
But it never happens. I repeat, it never happens. It is the hundreds of hours of marketing it takes to get that one job that pays you $800. It is the hard dollar expense of keeping all your gear current, having the insurance, paying for your car and gas, your cell phone and online access.
So maybe you only get 3 four hour jobs per month. Maybe you will only get two. Now how much do you need to charge to make it? And can you keep up that level of marketing and looking for new clients forever? When you get more jobs that takes away from your marketing time and believe me, marketing not sustain itself without working it.
Yes when Cousin Pam shows up to shoot a wedding with her 30D it does impact the market. Because she will turn out some acceptable photos. Can she do it week after week under any circumstance, maybe not. But it drives the market. Value in large part is determined by availability and if everyone does it... Well.
Photography has become a commodity. To rise above it you have to be very different and price yourself accordingly. |
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Bryan Hulse, Photographer
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Highlands Ranch | Co | USA | Posted: 11:12 AM on 11.28.07 |
->> I understand your point Ian. But the market drives that rate. I can charge $300/hour to shoot High School sports, but I guarantee I will be sitting at home and not making a dime.
Regarding the weddings, sure Cousin Pam may turn out some good photos. But the client wants HUNDREDS of GREAT photos. That is the difference. I see the work of the Cousin Pam and Uncle Joe because I often be-friend them and we share work. They may have a dozen or so good shots. But I want my client to see the proof book I create, and wonder how in the world they will narrow down the photos selected for the album to ONLY 80 to 100 photos. If they struggle over that decision, I have done my job well.
Sure, there will be couples that decide to hire Uncle Joe to shoot that wedding, no matter what the outcome. But I am not targeting that low of a market anyway. When Uncle Joe starts slinging around lights and battery packs for on-location portraits, uses an assistant, and starts strobing the entire dance hall, THEN I will get worried. |
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Rick Rowell, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Vista | CA | USA | Posted: 1:33 PM on 11.28.07 |
| ->> Dennis, you can take all the deals you want. The reason I posted is to inform those who might still be thinking about working for PSO. About how they contacted me and how I was informed about the new deal. When they informed me they said it was a temporary situation. I've been a professional for 26 years and from past experiences I think I now what they are trying to do with their take it or leave it deal two weeks before the season starts. I busted my ass for them last year, went the extra mile and turned in some of the best photography they ever got. I know because I looked at all of the so called professional photography on the other school sites. There were only a couple of other schools that had what in my humble opinion you could call professional. I'm not the one who put up on their site that "We use professional photographers". You and Bryan seemed to be fairly happy with what's going on, or at least are far more patient than myself. Maybe this deal works for you guys and your just doing it for fun. Perhaps by taking this deal you have helped yourself. But I would argue that you have not helped the profession of photography or other photographers like myself who would have liked to continue my business relationship with PSO. If PSO had notified us during the summer and gave us some time to ask and answer questions and possibly work out some other deal, that would have been better. But to notify us the way they did is outrageous. Take it or leave it, less than half pay for just about the same effort and expense on your part. Why not just poke me in the eye with a sharp stick. They obviously don't value quality so why work for them. Your photography is why people come to visit the site. Without getting a good number of hits on the site they cannot charge their advertisers the fees they need to keep it going and in turn they cannot give back the same amount of money to the schools as they did in the past. It all comes back to the photography, and these are the guys their messing with. How smart is that? Parents come to the site to see the videos and photos of their kids playing ball. PSO claims, or they did last year that they shoot photos of all the kids even the ones who ride the bench. In order to get photos of these kids I would arrive early and shoot the warm-ups from angles that would make it look as much as possible like a game situation. I would bring lights for indoor events so I could shoot at lower ISO speeds and freeze the action (the extra mile). All of this effort was basically ignored when they sent out that email with the take it or leave it "temporary" deal. I'm not asking for more money. I'm only asking for same deal as last year. If last years deal wasn't right for them I assure you it wasn't due to a lack of effort on my part. So why should I or any other photographer take less compensation for the same effort? |
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Erik Anderson, Photographer
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Kansas City | MO | | Posted: 2:39 PM on 11.28.07 |
->> Rick,
Thanks for your input, I certainly appreciate your comments.
In gleaning what I can from the postings, there's a dollar amount out there for a specific number of events and one can double up by covering the JV/V games in series at the same venue in the same night. If they are treated as separate events and aren't required to cover the entire event, could the following be argued?:
1) Covering the last half of the JV game and first half of the Varsity game be roughly equivalent to covering one complete event?
2) If #1 is true AND the schedule can support covering a JV/V game each trip then I count eight 'events' to cover.
If that's the case, then for the same time involved for one event, the pay would be slightly less than twice what you've calculated. |
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Bryan Hulse, Photographer
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Highlands Ranch | Co | USA | Posted: 3:00 PM on 11.28.07 |
->> Yes, so in my case, I am getting 10 bucks less than I got shooting winter sports for PSO last year for roughly the same amount of shooting time (if I can double up), and have to deliver around 100 less photos this year for that same amount of time. So, if I can double up on the sports, I am coming out ahead time wise since my post processing time will be less.
I just submitted my December schedule and all of my games but 1 are doubled up. I of course have the option not to shoot that single game if it isn’t worth my time. |
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Dennis Wierzbicki, Photographer
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Plainfield | IL | USA | Posted: 3:01 PM on 11.28.07 |
->> Rick (et al),
This is really pointless, isn't it? I mean, it's not like you're gonna convince me to change my mind, nor would I ever be so bold as to presume it's my place to try and make you agree with me. We have both made our own personal decisions. Period.
As far as I see it, this comes down to one thing: I simply don't agree with you. You have stated your opinion as was your right and I have stated mine. Doesn't mean I think you're wrong and I'm right, nor can you claim you are right and I am wrong. We just disagree.
I'm sure you left PSO for reasons that are important to you, and I respect your decision. Why can't you respect my (and others') decision to stay?
Peace. |
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Scott Sewell, Photographer
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Topeka | KS | USA | Posted: 3:26 PM on 11.28.07 |
->> Hmm...I guess I'm so out of the loop on this I don't even know what "PSO" is???
Parents/Student Organization?
People Sitting Outside?
Pets Smell Outragous?
Photograhers Selling Out? |
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Dennis Wierzbicki, Photographer
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Plainfield | IL | USA | Posted: 3:52 PM on 11.28.07 |
->> Scott - I choose 3, since my pets DO smell outrageous.
PSO hasn't gotten much airplay on FM, though it does occasionally come up. |
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Louis Lopez, Photographer
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Fontana | CA | USA | Posted: 4:37 PM on 11.28.07 |
->> "Prep Sports Online. It's similar to Max Preps:"
only in that both sites offer images for sale to the parents, and that is where the similarities end. |
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Mark Peters, Photographer
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Highland | IL | USA | Posted: 5:19 PM on 11.28.07 |
->> I looked at the PSO site and could not find where prints were offered for sale. If the source of revenue is print sales, wouldn't this be easy to find? Do you have to be a member to get a special link?......
(I also can't resist noting they have Naperville North IHSA championship galleries up......I smell a cease and desist letter in the making) |
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Dennis Wierzbicki, Photographer
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Plainfield | IL | USA | Posted: 5:36 PM on 11.28.07 |
->> Mark,
As I understand it, the online store will be enabled this weekend. I think they will require registration to purchase, but until the store goes live, it's all a guess.
I didn't shoot NN this past weekend (covered them all but one of the regular season games) and don't know how or if they will be affected by the IHSA ruling. |
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Erik Anderson, Photographer
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Kansas City | MO | | Posted: 5:52 PM on 11.28.07 |
->> Mark,
[sarcasm on]
Yes, you have to be a member. It is indeed a secret club with a handshake and everything. We get together every 3rd Tuesday after a lunar eclipse and count our pennies.
[sarcasm off]
:)
My understanding was that most of the funding was from advertising. |
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Mark Peters, Photographer
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Highland | IL | USA | Posted: 7:50 PM on 11.28.07 |
->> I've only looked at the PSO site the past couple of days, after seeing this site, but I don't see any advertising.
How can they afford to pay shooters if they aren't selling images currently or selling advertising? |
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Dennis Wierzbicki, Photographer
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Plainfield | IL | USA | Posted: 8:11 PM on 11.28.07 |
->> We're getting a little OT here, but as far as I know, PSO has always sold images and videos on their site. It's only been in the last few months, as they've redesigned their Web site, that ordering has been temporarily disabled.
Also, they sold a large portion of the company to the Wasserman Media Group (http://www.wmgllc.com/) earlier this year, and Wasserman is doubtless investing in the joint venture.
I'm not sure I remember seeing much advertising on the old site, so I can't confirm what Erik said. |
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Mark Peters, Photographer
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Highland | IL | USA | Posted: 8:33 PM on 11.28.07 |
->> Dennis,
I apologize if my questions took this off-topic. I was looking at the site to see what it offered to see if it would be something that would interest me, since there seemed to be a mixed reaction in this thread.
A lack of an obvious revenue stream to compensate their shooters just seemed odd to me, and I would think that it would be of concern to those shooting for them as well, as it speaks to their long term viability. |
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Erik Anderson, Photographer
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Kansas City | MO | | Posted: 8:43 PM on 11.28.07 |
->> Last year, prior to the redesign, there was quite a number of adverts, especially from the Army and Navy as I recall.
There was an email last year stating that they were funded for the next 3 years, I'll have to reread it for details. |
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Dennis Wierzbicki, Photographer
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Plainfield | IL | USA | Posted: 12:18 AM on 11.30.07 |
->> For the information of PSO shooters, the discount at Calumet Photo is on. Contact your Media Manager for more details.
It's a little confusing, as the discount varies based on what you're buying (like a student discount). I bought a MultiCart today at the local Calumet Store, discounted roughly 15% off their price, which made it competitive with the price from most online vendors. Not a GREAT deal, but a deal, nonetheless. I prefer buying from actual people to buying online, although I will buy online if the price is a lot better or for convenience. The PSO discount at Calumet will give me a chance to make some of my purchases locally.
I also had a long telephone discussion (one hour +) with my Media Manager yesterday, and will post a summary when I get a chance. We discussed pretty much everything that can be imagined regarding the plan for the next month and further.
As before, I'd suggest you reach out and touch your Media Manager with any question, or drop me a line via my member page and I'll try to help. |
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Jamie McDonald, Photographer
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North Adelaide | SA | Australia | Posted: 2:45 AM on 11.30.07 |
->> Lawyer walks into the boardroom for his annual review with his senior partners. Good job this year, everyone did well, including you, so we're dropping your pay. Happy? Happy, you bet, and I'm going to get on a public forum and tell every other lawyer, client and firm how damn tootin it is that I got a pay cut.
Are you out of your F@$*ing minds? It's always these threads that get a reincarnation after they finally max out at 50.
Hey, take your pay cut, but if someone says it stinks, then maybe they're not the one with their head in the sand.
There is so much information on this site and elsewhere on the web about these lowball offers hurting the industry - read it. And if you think you're safe because you're a wedding photographer, then read it again. And again. Sportsshooter has suffered a bit of a brain drain since I've been a member, and threads like these are why.
Knock yourself out, mark it as inappropriate, or tell me that it's your business. But it's not - it's OUR business. When you take a lowball offer it affects every pro photographer.
Cheers |
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Dennis Wierzbicki, Photographer
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Plainfield | IL | USA | Posted: 7:28 AM on 11.30.07 |
->> Jamie - G'Day, mate! Welcome to the Club. Happy Holidays.
You asked: "Are you out of your F@$*ing minds?" - Well, I can't answer for everyone else, since your question appeared to be written in the plural form, but you're not the first person to suggest that I am, indeed, out of my "F@$*ing mind". Who needs sanity, I always say? It's so...normal!
Obviously you've had a bad personal experience with the Australian Division of PSO, covering Friday Night Australian Rules football, was it? Or maybe Friday Night Wallaby Watching? Funny, but I didn't see the North Adelaide High 'Roos listed as one of PSO's covered teams, but maybe I missed 'em.
To everybody else (OK, not everybody, but almost everybody), here's my take on my discussion with my Media Manager.
The interpretations above from guys like Erik and Bryan are pretty much spot on (Fair Dinkum, for your benefit, Jamie -yes, I have been to your beautiful country many times).
15 events, of our choosing, between now and 12/31/07. No need to cover the entire event - just enough to get 50-75 quality images. You CAN piggyback events back-to-back, or go from one to the other if they are happening simultaneously. For anyone doing the Math, this DOES mean you can earn more (60% more) base pay for the same amount of time required as before. Looking at my school's schedule, this isn't always possible, but it can be done most of the time. I even know one PSO shooter who tells me he's dong 3 events during one visit.
No revenue sharing (this is a downer, but once again PSO is claiming revenue sharing will kick in after this latest interim agreement - we'll see). Marketing material has been assembled in Iowa City - oh, this was news. PSO has opened a larger office in Iowa City to augment the one in Sterling, IL. This Geedunk will be mostly school-specific business cards with your name, PSO's branding and the school - contact your Media Manager to get these. Stylish PSO hats and logo'ed "Photographer's Vests" should be available in the next couple of weeks.
Once revenue sharing is enabled, there will also be a way to check sales of images from your games via the PSO site (something I'd like to see at my other clients).
I was told the long-term agreement will be effective 1/1/08 - I'd like to think this will happen and I believe PSO is working with this as their goal, but I'm a little skeptical. We'll see.
Oh, and about the events being our choice: in order to dovetail with Lando, PSO is requiring any games you cover be off of the schedules that are posted on your school's PSO Web page. The games you sign up for will appear when you log into Lando. To get them from the home page to Lando, though, will require you contact your Media Manager with your list of proposed events.
You may have noticed that not every event happening or sport being played at your school is listed on the school's PSO Web site. If you know of or can get the schedule to your Media Manager, he/she will get it input. I had this happen with my school. For some sports, only the Varsity was listed. Other sports, like hockey, weren't there at all. I sent the schedules to my Media Manager and within 24 hours, these sports were posted. In my opinion, this is pretty good service, but some of the PSO Trolls will undoubtedly find fault here, too.
As far as the Calumet discount is concerned, this looks to be a little user-clumsy, but it probably will be worth it depending on the savings. Like I said above, I personally like buying local. It's not a flat discount % off list, however.
How I worked it for me yesterday was I went to my local Calumet store and assembled what I wanted to buy. I then talked with a fellow whose name I got from my Media Manager earlier in the day, and he looked up the discounts. This isn't very elegant, but it's similar to a couple other discount programs I've experienced elsewhere. Unfortunately for me, my local store just opened this week, and their stock was kinda low so I'm gonna have to try again once their inventory is stocked more completely.
The way I would envision it working for most of us is you put together you list of things you are interested in and submit them to the appropriate person (either in person, via email, or on the phone). You would then decide which ones you want to buy and Bob's Your Uncle. If this proves too cumbersome for anyone, let PSO know and see what they can do. It would be great if we could get a code to enter on Calumet's Web site when we logged in, and whatever discount we might get would be displayed - or even at checkout.
I think that about covers it. I'm sure I missed something, so feel free to post here or contact me through my member page. |
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Jamie McDonald, Photographer
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North Adelaide | SA | Australia | Posted: 10:14 AM on 11.30.07 |
->> I find the travelling American's give their country a bad name. Slip in a few more condescending remarks about my country and I'd have to become a patriot and talk about American Imperialism.
You've been on here six months and you know it all, so good luck to you.
Adios ss.com |
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Dennis Wierzbicki, Photographer
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Plainfield | IL | USA | Posted: 11:03 AM on 11.30.07 |
->> Jamie, sorry my remarks offended you. Actually, though, they weren't meant to be condescending - more sarcastic. It was my obviously lame attempt at humor (or in your case, humour).
Have a nice day. |
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Rick Rowell, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Vista | CA | USA | Posted: 4:17 PM on 11.30.07 |
->> I think it might help everyone to know just what was offered at the outset of this season. I'm speaking about the emails that I received on August 2nd and then again on August 22nd of this year concerning the new agreement from PSO. I received these letters from the office of Tom Brandt, Senior Director, Network Development. The first letters sets up the second letter as a first contact informing all of the photographers I assume, that did work for PSO in the previous year or years. It reads as follows.
August 2 2007
PSO Media Provider
I hope your summer has been enjoyable. It has been a very hectic one for us, as we prepare for the launch of the new school year. We will be releasing our new model for this upcoming season very soon and although there are changes to nearly every facet of our model, including content acquisition, we are confident the improvements will create added benefits for everyone.
AS we finalize the content acquisition structure, several partnerships have been secured to assist PSO in the fulfillment of our mission. One of these partners, Calumet Photographic, is committed to enhancing the content quality, education and training of our media providers. AS such you will be receiving an email from Calumet with a request to complete a short survey. I ask that you take the time to complete this as the information will allow us to create a partnership that most benefits you. Your feedback and comments, both good and bad, are encouraged.
As a provider last year, you played an important role in shaping our business. We look forward to your continued support.
Regards, Tom Brandt.
Here's the second email
August 22nd 2007
PSO Media Provider
First,let me thank you all for your patience and understanding as we prepare to launch our network of high school athletic websites. It has been a daunting task to say the least and we are close to completing. It has become obvious that in all likelihood, we will not be prepared to launch, as expected, on September 1st. The delay in launching our network has forced us to create an interim, temporary solution for content acquisition. This solution only applies to photographers and will be implemented immediately as it is our desire to capture football games across our network this week. Though we will not be able to publish any of the content at this time, it will allow us to begin acquiring the needed content when we do launch. The interim solution is as follows.
-PSO will pay photographers $150.00 per event to capture 100, high-res edited photos from the entire event.
-PSO providers will be expected to save those 100, high-res, edited photos to a DVD and forward at their expense to PSO.
-PSO will contract with the photographer on a week by week basis to cover varsity football events only.
-Manual assignments will be issued via email to photographer.
-Photographers will be expected to invoice PSO for their services.
-PSO will pay photographer Net 15 days from the receipt of the invoice.
The agreement you will sign is only for the interim period. We will begin solicitation of our new model soon, as we near the launching of the network. If you agree to the new agreement, it will supersede this interim agreement when you accept and sign it.
Attached is a listing of high schools that have committed to date. Your immediate response will secure your services with us. If we do not hear from you within the next 24 hours, we will seek alternative sources to acquire the content. If you have any questions, please feel free to contact me directly via email. I am hopeful you will continue with us, as your professional services are needed.
Regards, Tom Brandt.
Now I understand that some of these conditions have changed. But as an initial offer and giving us only 24 hours to respond after receiving twice the money for providing 200 to 250 images the previous football season and PSO also provided the mailers and DVD's for the photos. A poke in the eye with a sharp stick comes to mind. If you read my previous posts on this subject then you will understand better my position. I have run into this before in my 26 years as a pro. Perhaps I'm just too jaded, but you have to look at the timing of these emails. It's very poor timing at best. Also have the conditions(website etc...) and pay scale really improved any? Or at least come up to where it was last year? I do understand that possibly not all of the media providers were being compensated the same last year. PSO still has on their website that they use "professional photographers". A professional photographer is someone who earns their entire living from the art and craft of photography. If they are not willing to pay a professional rate or at least something close to it. Then how are they able to get away with telling their clients that the person photographing their schools events is a Pro? If you look at the photography being provided for the majority of the websites, professional is not the word that comes to mind. Some of these people may be pros that just don't understand how to get quality images from high school football games because it's not their field of expertise in photography. But from the look for the images and this is only my humble opinion. Most of the people shooting these games are amateurs who are excited about shooting sports and getting paid something for it. If that is the case then PSO should do some alterations to the statement on their website.
Dennis I'm not trying to convince you to stop shooting for PSO. As I said before, I'm only trying to inform those who might be thinking of continuing their relationship with PSO or those thinking of taking this new deal for the first time. That's my reason for posting here and for posting the emails sent to me and I assume to all other media providers from previous seasons.
Thank you for your kind attention, Rick. |
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Bryan Hulse, Photographer
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Highlands Ranch | Co | USA | Posted: 5:39 PM on 11.30.07 |
->> Yes, the conditions have changed since that interim arrangement.
Yes, we were all upset at that arrangement (and that is why I started the original post) but many of us decided to stick with PSO to see what happens, and it was a personal decision for each of us.
And yes, last time I posted a quote from PSO, it was delete several times from this forum and I was told to 'Report the news, don't quote it'.
Finally, yes it's time for us all to realize we have different opinions on this that aren't going to change. |
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Rick Rowell, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Vista | CA | USA | Posted: 6:29 PM on 11.30.07 |
| ->> Bryan, deleted by whom? Told by whom? Could you help me understand a little better? |
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Melissa Wade, Photographer
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New York | NY | USA | Posted: 8:12 PM on 11.30.07 |
->> What do you think they'll offer next year as compensation? They've established they can get enough photographers for $X which is much less than they paid last year. Why wouldn't they come back next year and see if they can lower the cost of their photography even more? If they had been acting in good faith re: all the promises they made re: shared print sales revenue and merely changing the method of compensating photographers rather than slashing compensation across the board, they would have continued the old compensation until they were set up to make and account for print sales.
Maybe some of you feel that you were too public with your belief in PSO and in embarassment at the complete failure of the compensation promises coming to pass, you keep hanging in there hoping a miracle will happen, but continuing to accept it is cutting off your nose to spite your face.
Just curious - do other clients know you shoot for PSO? Have you thought about how they'll perceive your worth and how tempted they'll be to offer you empty promises of future work at more pay if you'll only shoot X for pennies.
Those of you who keep shooting for PSO while waiting for that next "interim" agreement make me think of greyhounds racing after a fake rabbit. The greyhounds eventually wear out and are dumped - the fake rabbit just keeps on circling the track for the next batch of dogs.
And yes, it is your right to shoot for any pay you choose, but it does harm other photographers and it is our right to point that out. It just would be nice if you would stop proselytizing on PSO's behalf. It's hard to understand why someone would do that unless they are getting compensated for that effort (whether actual compensation or encouraged to believe that the brown nose will pay off down the line; after all empty promises are already clearly acceptable). |
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Alvin Self, Photographer
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Irving | TX | USA | Posted: 10:26 PM on 11.30.07 |
->> I just recieved my 16 assignments for Dec. I have been a pro photographer since 1972. I had a studio and did Weddings and Portraits. I liked sports photography more.
I have been shooting Rodeos since the beggining along with other sports. I have shot all over the United States and have been published World Wide. I am tired of the traveling. PSO offers a way to make 16X120= 1920.00 in 4 weeks of shooting a few days a week leaving the weekend for my other photography. As for me, PSO is a God send, and I am happy to shot for them. They fill a nich. I have shot high school sports on my own for years and I can tell you when shooting spec. you may only make 50.00 from sales at a game. Thats why they call it speculation. A flat rate of 120.00 and the ability to shoot 2 events a night is a win win situation.
Alvin Self
President: The Association of Professional Rodeo Photographers |
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Mark Carriveau, Photographer
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West Chicago | il | USA | Posted: 11:22 PM on 11.30.07 |
->> I have not really posted much about this but I have been following all of this on the board since August. This is my second year with PSO. I like everybody else was less than pleased with the way thing started out this year. I made the decision to stick it out during this time thinking it would only be a few weeks. Yes it did not work out that way. Yes, I could of walked away and never looked back. I decided to stay. I had hoped that I would recoup the costs by getting part of the sales from my photos. That did not work out either. But I had a gut feeling that things would work out in the end.
Last year I made $250 an event. Had to submit 300 images and had to stay for the whole event which was anywhere from 2-4 hours.
When phase 2 was revealed this past week I was ready to walk. Then I thought about it and did the math. $120 an event 50 –75 images and do not have to stay for the whole event. I also get to pick my own schedule and piggyback events. Let’s do the math 2 events back to back, which comes to 100-150 images total. For $240. Yes that ten dollars less than I made last year but guess what I do not have to as many images, I do not have as many images to edit, I do not have to resize and make an extra set of low-res web images or burn a DVD. All my work for this next phase will have at least 2 events back to back. I also have a few events that are 3 back to back to back events. So the way I see it I am shooting and processing fewer images than last year for ten dollars less for the same amount of shooting time as last year. This is a much better offer than we had for the fall.
Will someone explain to me how all of a sudden I am ruining our industry and hurting other photographers pricing structure? On top of that someone from the other side of the world seems to think I have lost my F@$*ing mind. Let’s relax people. Look at the whole picture and get all the facts before you start throwing stones.
If nobody wants to shoot for PSO fine, I can respect that. If it does not work for you fine, move on. Everybody has their own reasons why they will or will not work for a client. I am not hurting anyone or your business by choosing to continue to shoot for PSO. Whenever a business goes through changes like this it is rocky for everybody involved. If it succeeds it will get better for everybody. If it does not I will take my lumps then. Right now all I have is a gut feeling is that everything will work out. When the smoke clears we will see who made the better choice. Until then let’s all relax |
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Melissa Wade, Photographer
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New York | NY | USA | Posted: 11:53 PM on 11.30.07 |
->> Mark: Will someone explain to me how all of a sudden I am ruining our industry and hurting other photographers pricing structure?
--
There have been a number of references in these threads about how it happened right before football season started often making it sound as though this put all the power in PSO's hands. But what if the majority of the photographers they had lined up had said it is unacceptable for you to reduce our compensation prior to having the new compensation model you are promising set up RIGHT BEFORE football season started? (maybe with a CC: to the relevant Athletic Directors if you've developed a relationship there).
RIGHT BEFORE football season, do you think they'd want to have to find an entire new base of shooters? Deal with questions from the schools? Or do you think just maybe, the old model might have been kept until the new model incl. share in print sales was set up (and that that would have happened much much faster)?
You've lowered what PSO is now willing to pay and you've lowered what similar firms might be willing to pay as they will look at similars in making that determination. That is how you hurt other photographers.
Sorry Mark, but you were the last reply. You also say "...Whenever a business goes through changes like this it is rocky for everybody involved. If it succeeds it will get better for everybody...."
Why exactly do you think it will get better for photographers? You've shown willingness to work for the current amount. Why on earth should they cut profits by paying you more when you've (not just Mark) have made it very clear that they don't have to pay you more. That just makes no sense. |
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Bryan Hulse, Photographer
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Highlands Ranch | Co | USA | Posted: 11:59 PM on 11.30.07 |
->> Rick: I posted a PSO response a few months ago and it was deleted multiple times because I wasn’t supposed to provide a direct quote in this forum.
Melissa: Pennies? Are you kidding me? How is $60 bucks per hour, including shooting and processing just pennies? MAN you must make a LOT of money! Sounds like you like to subscribe to the conspiracy theory. No, I am not paid by PSO to post here and frankly I resent that accusation. It’s called a Freak’n positive attitude. Try it sometime.
Math (just in case anyone thinks it is there business, which is obviously the case):
2 events per evening @ $120/event. Shoot ½ of first event, then ½ of second event = $240.00 for roughly 2.5 hours of shooting
Drive home (for me) = 2 minutes
Post processing (for me) = 1.5 hours
$240.00/4 hours = $60.00/hour. I will gladly take those 'pennies', especially in my off season, and I’m sure many shooters out there would as well. Sorry it doesn’t live up to your expectations. Maybe you are pissed about all that time I spend on the road for that lowly rate? Actually, if I walk, it’s about 5 minutes, but I have to drag my 2 Pelican cases.
P.S.1. I don’t want commission on sales. I want to stay with the higher hourly rate. If that changes, I will once again re-evaluate my options.
P.S.2. Forget about the interim deal. It’s over. No one liked it. THAT is why I started the post. Forget about it! ! ! If it comes back, you can all say, ‘I told you so’.
Sorry all, I am way over this topic.
Alvin and Mark: Thanks guys! I don’t get it either. |
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Mark Carriveau, Photographer
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West Chicago | il | USA | Posted: 12:30 AM on 12.01.07 |
->> You are just looking at the per event price and not what is required from each event. This phase two model has already improved over what we had in the fall. Like I said earlier I am making what I did last year when I combine events. It takes the same amount of time to cover two events as it did to cover I event in the fall. So yes there is some improvement. It has already showed signs of getting better and it is comparable to what we made last year. Nobody complained about what we made last year so I assume that amount was acceptable by everybody involved. The only thing that has changed is the way we arrive at the money.
Last year we only shot sports on the varsity level. Roughly 2 hours of time to shoot the game and capture 300 images. This current model lets me shoot the second half of the sophomore game and the first half of the varsity game. This takes roughly 2 hours and I only have to deliver 100-150 images. Same time, less images, same amount of money. I do not see why it is so hard to understand. Time is money. I understand that. Last year 2 hours at varsity events was good pay. Nobody complained. No we do 1 hour of varsity and one hour of sophomore back to back and all of a sudden it is a problem. Is there really a difference between shooting one full game at $240 a game vs. 2 half games at $120 a game? To me I see no difference. From a business standpoint there is no difference. Firms will look at money per hour and see that there is no difference between last year and this year. They can look at the fall pricing and see that the company made a mistake and is trying to rectify it. |
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Rick Rowell, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Vista | CA | USA | Posted: 1:23 AM on 12.01.07 |
| ->> Bryan, now you have my curiosity up. Who told you that you can't provide a direct quote from anyone on this form? I just did it two posts ago. Did you sign a non disclosure agreement with PSO? If PSO's response came to you in an email then that email belongs to you. That's same as if it came by snail mail. You can post it anywhere or quote it in any place you like. There is no liable or slander here, It's a quote and you can "quote" me on that. |
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