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SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board

U.S. says AP photographer linked to Iraq insurgents
Jeff Blake, Photographer
Columbia | SC | USA | Posted: 2:32 PM on 11.20.07
->> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21889120/
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Jeffrey Haderthauer, Photographer
Wichita Falls | TX | USA | Posted: 3:15 PM on 11.20.07
->> "The U.S. military plans to seek a criminal case in an Iraqi court against an award-winning Associated Press photographer but is refusing to disclose what evidence or accusations would be presented."

I thought as Americans, we were supposed to be above this. Sending people away without ever making the charges or evidence public, what a crock. America used to stand for something- I thought we were better than everyone else- we treated the world fairly and justly. It seems I was misled. Now we send journalists (albeit foreign) to star chamber courts and convict them with secret information because he reported details that made us look incompetent and maybe damaged our "prestige".

If the United State turns Bilal over to the Iraqi justice system, he will disappear. He will be tortured and murdered and Americans won't give a damn because we're too busy watching Dancing With the Stars to care about the real world. I'm about to be sick.


Free Bilal.
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Bob Croslin, Photographer
St. Petersburg | FL | USA | Posted: 3:20 PM on 11.20.07
->> http://www.bobcroslin.com/notagain.jpg
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Martin McNeil, Photographer
East Kilbride | South Lanarkshi | United Kingdom | Posted: 3:21 PM on 11.20.07
->> I can't begin to accurately express the anger, frustration and sheer despair I felt upon reading this article - and continue to do so.

When a respected photojournalist like Hussein is abused in such a manner, with his basic rights denied by the U.S. Military - what message does that send to the wider world?

At the very least it smacks of double-standards: that the U.S. Government (and its various arms thereof) will champion and respect the 'inalienable human rights' of their own citizens but will abuse, deny, obfuscate and seek to circumvent the same for anyone else.

One must ask oneself: when faced with a body that will deny your rights at every turn, who will most likely detain you without charge and who marginalises your very existence - what course of action can you take to challenge them??
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Adam Vogler, Photographer
Chanute | KS | USA | Posted: 3:47 PM on 11.20.07
->> You know outraged just doesn't seem to cover it.

I feel so jealous of my grandparents, who can remember when we were considered the good guys.

I am just so disappointed and ashamed.
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Jeffrey Haderthauer, Photographer
Wichita Falls | TX | USA | Posted: 9:23 PM on 11.20.07
->> disgusting:

BAGHDAD (AP) —The Pentagon also raised the possibility that Bilal Hussein, who was part of the AP's Pulitzer Prize-winning photo team in 2005, could continue to be held even if the Iraqi court acquits him.

"I think there is still a provision, should it be determined that he still poses a threat, that he can be held as a security detainee ... even though he was found to be not guilty for criminal acts by a court," Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman said.
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Joshua Brown, Photographer
Waynesville | NC | USA | Posted: 10:14 PM on 11.20.07
->> So we are in Iraq to expand freedom and democracy while simultaneously denying basic freedoms. What does this say to the rest of the world about the US? To me, it says that we are no better than those we seek to change, just more powerful. He's already been held for 19 months. It's sickening.
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David Honl, Photographer
Istanbul | TR | Turkey | Posted: 11:36 PM on 11.20.07
->> If you are inclined, please show your support and sign the petition at http://www.freebilal.org/
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David Butler II, Photographer
Somers | CT | USA | Posted: 11:53 PM on 11.20.07
->> Jeff,

Sounds like you need to take a chill pill... and by the way, America does stand for something.... its called freedom... and the American's I know, myself included, don't think we are better than everyone else, but equal with everyone else... just luckier because we live in one of the best darn countries in the world! Also, the last time I checked, Iraq is a war zone, in a different country than America, so many of the due processes we enjoy here, doesn’t apply there. You seem to spout off a lot of facts in your post... not sure how you seem to know so much... I would venture to say you really don't know much at all... including facts!!! And just for the record, as an American, you don't speak for me.

Respectfully,

David Butler II
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Shane Canfield, Photographer
Alexandria | VA | USA | Posted: 12:07 AM on 11.21.07
->> I have to agree with you David. And not sure why the message board is full of so much anger on so many threads lately. Hopefully most are not living in a constant state of being ticked off.
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Steven E. Frischling, Photographer
Live HVN : Work SFO-NYC | | | Posted: 12:09 AM on 11.21.07
->> David

The Associated Press has had independent investigators look into this case. The AP has gone all out to seek out any potential evidence. There is no case against the AP Photog.

The US Gov't believes that the AP Photog knew to many things ahead of time and was being tipped off. Look at his work, all his images are after the fact, just like every other photog.

The U.S. Gov't operating in the US or overseas needs to be held to the same standard. The US Military is fighting for freedom. US servicemen and women are giving up their lives in the pursuit of freedom, we as a nation need to extend these rights to those the US Gov't plans to prosecute.

Those Who Would Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither - Benjamin Franklin
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Lee Love, Photographer
Herndon | VA | US | Posted: 12:55 AM on 11.21.07
->> I am looking for a source for the report I heard today but the claim is he had bomb making and IAD material where he was staying. I can't confirm this info right now.

I am sure the military knew they were going to take a lot of heat for detaining a journalist so there has to be a lot more going on here than just what AP is reporting.
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 1:11 AM on 11.21.07
->> I'm going to jump in here. some of you folks don't know what the hell you're talking about. I was embedded in the early part of the war. I was with a unit who had a commanding officer, what I considered one of the most intelligent soldiers I have ever known. he NEVER told me I couldn't shoot anything...no matter what. early on when the insurgents began using IED's our unit was hit. I jumped in a humvee with the first response unit...got to the scene where this humvee was a smoldering pile of sludge...one soldier dead. several injured. it was really really scary...there where hundreds of US soldiers with more armamanet than an arnold shwarzennager (sp) movie. they were pissed off, some of their friends had been injured. so on the other side there were a shitload of kids, yeah kids, waving and screaming anti-american stuff. you know why I was scared? I thought I was going to be the witness to a massacre of epic proportions. to this day, four years later I still have thoughts about how if just one gunshot had come from a building there in fallujah I would have witnessed something so horrible I wouldn't recover emotionally. so I shot my photos of the humvee. the twisted smoking metal and a soldiers boot..who we later learned belong to george perez, a soldier who lost the lower portion of his leg. it was truthful reporting of a WAR. but guess what? the US military OUR military made new guidelines after the photos appeared via AP. no one. NO ONE..even embedded photographers would be allowed within, I think I heard, one or one half mile of the scene of an IED, crash site...whatever...because...HOLY CRAP!! GUESS WHAT? it's war and young kids get killed!! but our government doesn't want anyone to SEE that kids are dying. and if you don't believe these words....why the hell have photos of US flag draped coffins on transport planes been banned for the past three years. so the point of what I'm saying is? as much as I love this country some of you need to step back....and maybe shut up
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 1:32 AM on 11.21.07
->> okay sorry. the point of my rant (SEE ABOVE) was that maybe, just maybe some folks should get their heads out of the sand. and david, I have to say after reading your post (which by the way set me off) is without a doubt the biggest pile of bulls@@t I've seen on sportshooter since I've been a member. sorry to be so blunt, that's who I am. but you obviously live in some hollywood movie dream world of red, white and blue, john wayne and ronald reagan to write such pablum. how in god's name can you say something like "Also, the last time I checked, Iraq is a war zone, in a different country than America, so many of the due processes we enjoy here, doesn’t apply there." so that gives us the right to kick ass and torture without due process? hey man when the cops come to your house, kick down the door and wanna know why you spit on the sidewalk don't come crying to me or the US government. you get what you pay for pal.
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Mark Smith, Photographer
Elk City | OK | USA | Posted: 3:18 AM on 11.21.07
->> "hey man when the cops come to your house, kick down the door and wanna know why you spit on the sidewalk don't come crying to me or the US government. you get what you pay for pal."

Huh?
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Geoff Miller, Photographer
Portage | MI | USA | Posted: 8:31 AM on 11.21.07
->> It still amazes me that people feel so free to post things on-line that they'd likely never say in person. Personally, I try to keep in mind this notion when I type something into this, or any other, internet forum. If I wouldn't say it to your face, I won't type it here. In spite of it being the Internet, it's still a "small world" out there and I cross paths with a number of fellow members each year. I don't someone to walk past me at an event and think "Oh, so THAT'S that #$@#!%# from SportsShooter!" It doesn't matter what side of the ideological fence you're on.

As for the case of the photographer in question... I haven't read enough to form a good opinion at this point. Perhaps he's totally innocent, perhaps he was a little too "friendly" with the guys planting IEDs, executing foreigners, and such. However, people need to remember that, as pointed out, Iraq is a war zone. As such, Miranda, "speedy trial", "probably cause", and the lot don't apply. This notion didn't start with this war... this theater... this century... this President... or the US. Likewise when it comes to restrictions aimed at curtailing media images deemed to affect "morale" negatively back home. Does this automatically make it "right"? No. But I think it's a good idea to keep things in perspective. As such, I'm resisting the urge to proclaim my "shame" and beg forgiveness on the international stage at this juncture.
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 10:09 AM on 11.21.07
->> sorry mark. in my feeble old mind I was tying in the loss of rights we have in this country in the "war on terror" and the way over the past few years police departments are becoming more of paramilitary outfits than they used to be. mis-firing neurons sorry. I guess it made sense to me but I guess it was a leap that didn't make a lot of sense. as far as not typing something and posting that I wouldn't say in person (okay I'm assuming you were referring to me) unfortunately I have a habit of speaking my mind and not holding much back...hence...that post. and if someone considers me an a##^&*e...well that's their opinion and I can live with it. but on another note. what is the difference in writing something that you can speak to as opposed to posting something your completely ignorant and misinformed about? no one gets slapped or "inappropriates" for those posts. I have been reading about that poor guy for over a year now and I truly don't care if it's a war zone. he's a journalist (backed by the AP) and we have to be better than this. as a nation and as a people. the "do as I say not as I do" is wrong. truthfully, is there a difference in us holding an accredited journalist for over a year and pakistan's military junta banning the media from coverage of the unrest? I think not. if the guy is guilty put him on trial, show us the evidence or let him go. it's called due process.
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Eric Canha, Photographer
Brockton | MA | United States | Posted: 10:19 AM on 11.21.07
->> Chuck take one step over I want to stand beside you.

Amen.
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Chris E. Curry, Photographer, Photo Editor
Norfolk | VA | USA | Posted: 10:22 AM on 11.21.07
->> Mark,

I think the point that Chuck made is that in Iraq there have been many home invasions and false imprisonments by the military in Iraq.

I have to agree 100% with what Joshua Brown wrote.

When are we going to wake up and hold some accountability?

It seems that if you're military you will be given a free pass but a if you're a working journalist you are seen as a threat and have no due process.

Especially if your last name is Hussein.

chris
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Lee Love, Photographer
Herndon | VA | US | Posted: 10:24 AM on 11.21.07
->> Chuck sounds like your credentials are impeccable and you have seen a lot of things that would give anyone nightmares. I applaud your experience and your passion.

But with all due respect David's views are valid and should be respected as yours. Just because he is proud of his country (which is you and me by the way NOT the government) does not warrant putting him down. I don't want to speak for him but it sounds like he is just tired of hearing people attack the US military at the drop of a hat.

Here is a case in point. Do a quick search on this forum for Daniel Pearl, there was virtually no comments or outrage towards those who beheaded him and showed it on tv. Yet an Iraq photographer is arrested as an alleged enemy and people immediately come down on the US military.

I also do not want to debate war time coverage because you certainly have a lot of experience but we can't have it both ways. People scream about their rights and due process in the middle of a war zone. But as photojournalist we are not allowed to go running into a burning buildings or into the middle of a gun fight with a camera to cover a story here either.
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 10:49 AM on 11.21.07
->> lee, I understand your view completely but I would like to point out we're supposed to be better than the animals who killed daniel pearl. period. and just so we're all clear here. yes, everyone is allowed their opinion and the right to post it. but EVERY opinion, once it's out here can be challenged. and it continually pisses me off that folks wrap themselves in the american flag and when you disagree with them you're unamerican. I don't feel as though I need to beat a drum, sing the star spangled banner and wear an american flag patch on my arm to prove how american I am. and I was not ranting about the kids who are actually over there in the meat grinder. the troops I was with weren't in the green zone. it wasn't the hilton. we lived in tents or bombed out buildings which were refitted. ate crappy food and dust. and that is america to me. kids who have no idea of what they're getting into but sticking with it no matter that they're in mortal danger every single second. a country which would allow the media to live with the troops and see firsthand what is going on. again if hussein is so guilty lets have a trial and see the evidence. plain and simple dontcha ya think?
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Yamil Sued, Photographer, Photo Editor
Peoria | AZ | USA | Posted: 11:43 AM on 11.21.07
->> One Point here....

This forum is turning more oand more political and lesss about what we do.

This is supposed to be Sportssooter.com, not pressshooter.com

Now about this particular thred.

1-What makes the AP Photographer immediately Innocent and the Military immediately guilty?

2-None of you know all the facts, and I don't thing you ever will.

3-What if??? The military is right and soldiers die because of the actions of "ANY" journalist??? Will you blame the journalist , or will you come out against the Military because they knew or didn't know and when did they knew it??

Let's have some respect for some of these me and women, we have liberties in this country...Who gave them to you?? the press?? No!! A soldier died for it over 200 years ago!!! Every single freedom we share in this country, a Soldier gave his or her life for. have some respect for those who give their lives voluntarily for your freedom.
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Lee Love, Photographer
Herndon | VA | US | Posted: 12:10 PM on 11.21.07
->> ->> lee, I understand your view completely but I would like to point out we're supposed to be better than the animals who killed daniel pearl. period. and just so we're all clear here.

Chuck you and I are in agreement but my point was not that we should not be better but that there was not the same level of outrage directed toward the murderers.

When you have agencies like AP who have strictly forbidden the term "Terrorist" be used but will attack the US military at the drop of the hat at some point you start to question the facts.

Thanks again for your insight.
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Eric Canha, Photographer
Brockton | MA | United States | Posted: 12:17 PM on 11.21.07
->> Yamil,

I tend to agree with your posts 99% of the time. This one will end up in that other 1%.


Those soldiers died 200 years ago to prevent the very thing that is happening right now. They died to insure that justice was handled in a transparent and open forum. In a court 'of the people'. Hauling a person, and holding them in the 'tower' without benefit of being charged or tried was (and is) one of the things that this country fought against. To hold someone indefinitely is just plain wrong. History in the end will judge. I'm sure that the notion of rounding up the American Japanese to protect our freedoms was a great idea to some. In the end it was nothing more than small minds being allowed to make big decisions.

Have you considered that any human on the planet is currently running the risk of being called a terrorist and facing a legal system that has allowed huge black holes to develop. That some of the most 'basic' of rights that we think of as our protection against a rouge government is but a breath away from being shredded in the name of safety.

You asked ..."Who gave them to you?? "

We did. Collectively. The sailors and soldiers. The civilian men and women who built ships and made bullets and bombs. The factory workers who made boots and helmets. Please don't lay the Constitution at the base of a uniform. This country was formed based on what EVERYONE put (or didn't) in to it, not just by the military. We all count, whether you carry a gun into the battle or a camera. We gave ourselves the freedoms and WE are allowing them to be trampled.
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Matthias Krause, Photographer
Brooklyn | NY | USA | Posted: 12:38 PM on 11.21.07
->> "This forum is turning more and more political and lesss about what we do."
Yamil,
if you don't understand how important it is that we as journalists have a very keen eye on the environment we are working in you might be in the wrong business. But then I look up your page and wonder what are you doing on sportsshooter in the first place... Funny that somebody complains about things being "too political" that runs a company with the name "hotgunshots". But maybe it's just me...
Anyway.
Chuck for President!
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Mark Peters, Photographer
Highland | IL | USA | Posted: 1:20 PM on 11.21.07
->> Matthias,

Just because it doesn't have a stick and a ball or wheels it's not sport or competition?

Give me a break, there is nothing on Yamil's page or site that is political.

Perhaps its your own personal bias against his subject that keeps you from seeing that.
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Yamil Sued, Photographer, Photo Editor
Peoria | AZ | USA | Posted: 1:24 PM on 11.21.07
->> Matthias,

what makes me less of a sports shooter than you??

The fact that I photograph the shooting Sports??

Is that now Illegal here? The last time I checked they shoot at the Olympics, and the Olymipics are all about sports, aren't they??

The last time I checked this is
http://www.sportsshooter.com, not http://www.pressshooter.com

If you guys want to talk politics, go right ahead, but don't imply that because of the subject matter I'm any less of a Sports Photographer than you, or anyone else on this forum for that matter. I have seen Images on Portfolios here that have nothing to do with Sports, at least Athletes win medals for the subject matter I photograph.
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Yamil Sued, Photographer, Photo Editor
Peoria | AZ | USA | Posted: 1:27 PM on 11.21.07
->> Thanks Mark!!

Just what I said!!
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Doug Holleman, Photographer
Temple | TX | USA | Posted: 1:55 PM on 11.21.07
->> I'd just like to point out that this is the same guy who apparently staged photos of insurgents in heroic positions, which basically serve as propaganda.

Staging photos for any reason, and passing it off as photojournalism, is something that would be universally bashed on this site, in most cases.
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Adam Vogler, Photographer
Chanute | KS | USA | Posted: 1:57 PM on 11.21.07
->> I've thought long and hard about this thread and am doing the best I can to leave my emotions out of this post.

I decided to become a journalists for the same reasons many friends of mine joined the military, something that I considered doing when I was younger. The principle reason being to serve my fellow man and fellow Americans by bearing witness to events and informing others of what I have seen. I knew then as I know now that living this life will have some serious consequences for me and could very likely result in some serious emotion and even physical costs.
I've chosen this profession to do what my part to serve and keep this country great, I may not be a cop, or a soldier, or a firefighter but I do my best to honor the founding fathers who wrote the first amendment by doing what they wanted the press to accomplish, allowing people to make informed decisions.

I think thats why my blood boils every time I think about this case, or one like it. I can not believe that there are people that think that its ok to keep someone in prison for 19 MONTHS without ever showing any reason why.

Yamil in response

"1-What makes the AP Photographer immediately Innocent and the Military immediately guilty?" Innocent until proven guilty is a precept of our justice system. War zone or not we shouldn't change who we are are what we stand for. To do so is to DISHONOR all the sacrifices that have been made in the past and present.

"2-None of you know all the facts, and I don't thing you ever will." Thats exactly the point NOONE knows the facts because the authorities won't tell ANYONE what they are. All anyone wants is for Bilad to have the opportunity to defend himself.

3-What if??? The military is right and soldiers die because of the actions of "ANY" journalist??? That sounds an awful lot like East germany or Stalinist Russia when anyone was liable to be plucked off the street to be imprisoned indefinitely if someone in authority "THOUGHT" that the MIGHT be a threat.
Thats just not who WE are supposed to be.

We are supposed to be the good guys. We need to start acting like it.
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Matthias Krause, Photographer
Brooklyn | NY | USA | Posted: 2:02 PM on 11.21.07
->> Yamil, from your website: "http://www.hotshooter.com - photography solutions for the shooting industry".
Where was the sportsshooter part again, that you are insist on this forum should be driven by? But that's not my point anyway since I think this is a great community of photojournalists. But if somebody like you is obviously working for the "shooting industry" and shows a bias towards a certain political direction than maybe a disclaimer would be more honest, don't you think?

And back to the initial case. Some people are saying that we don't have enough information to form our opinions in this case. That's really funny. If we might not have enough information than that is because the US military doesn't want us to. So that should make us less suspicious about them? Give me a break. What makes me really sad about this whole discussion is that as a journalist I would expect fellow journalists to jump to my side if I where put in jail for 19 month without being charged. But apprently the current administration's propaganda machine works so well that people think that's okay as long is it doesn't happen in their backyard and to their pals. Where is that LaLa land you live in again?
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Yamil Sued, Photographer, Photo Editor
Peoria | AZ | USA | Posted: 2:14 PM on 11.21.07
->> Matthias,

What the hell do you think the USPSA Nationals is??

A freaking Picnic?? How about Bianchi Cup??

Camp Perry?? Steel Challenge??

All these are National Shooting Competitions!!


SPORTS!!


I must agree, you are biased against the subject matter I shoot, nothing else, pure unadulterated bias!!

FWIW, I have covered all ASU Football gems, will cover all Basketball and all other home events at ASU!! I do cover Sports with balls and sticks too!!
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Joseph Zimmerman, Photographer
Howard | Pa | USA | Posted: 2:14 PM on 11.21.07
->> Um Matthias. That's not Yamil's website you put in your post. Thats a porn site.
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Yamil Sued, Photographer, Photo Editor
Peoria | AZ | USA | Posted: 2:16 PM on 11.21.07
->> Do I shoot Porn now??

Where's the Money??
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Matthias Krause, Photographer
Brooklyn | NY | USA | Posted: 2:18 PM on 11.21.07
->> oops, sorry. It's http://www.hotgunshots.com
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Chris Stanfield, Photo Editor
Atlanta | GA | USA | Posted: 2:26 PM on 11.21.07
->> "I think there is still a provision, should it be determined that he still poses a threat, that he can be held as a security detainee ... even though he was found to be not guilty for criminal acts by a court," Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman said.

If anyone can find this provision online, please link to it. The rationale behind Bryan Whitman's statement is tough to understand.

If there is a provision that allows someone to be detained after being found innocent,then shame on us for not writing more about it.
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Yamil Sued, Photographer, Photo Editor
Peoria | AZ | USA | Posted: 2:38 PM on 11.21.07
->> Yes that is it Mattias, and if you took your binders off, you can look at my work inside. You can see that my Brooks education and the subsequent 22 years of Professional Experience have indeed paid off. It shows that I can actually work both in the Studio and on Location without a problem. The subject matter does not make me or disqualifies me as a valid member of this forum.
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Jason Frizzelle, Photographer
Greenville | NC | USA | Posted: 3:05 PM on 11.21.07
->> The 1949 Geneva Conventions permit the detention without charge of prisoners of war and other detainees only in the case of an international armed conflict—which by definition is between governments—or an occupation. Washington says that both will come to an end on June 30, meaning that the ongoing conflict between the Iraqi government and Iraqi insurgents would become a civil war. That a sovereign government may seek assistance from foreign governments does not transform a civil war into an international conflict. In the absence of an occupation or an international conflict, no one can be detained under international humanitarian law without being charged with a recognized crime. Those not charged must be released and repatriated “without delay.”

This was the best i could do in between assignments, you know those things we get paid to shoot. Plese feel free to add any legal documentation considering this one is from 2004.

Jason


http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/06/17/iraq8858.htm
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Jason Frizzelle, Photographer
Greenville | NC | USA | Posted: 3:13 PM on 11.21.07
->> http://www.genevaconventions.org/

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/iraq/genevaconventions.html

http://globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/attack/lawindex.htm

http://www.cfr.org/publication.html?id=5313

A little light reading.

Jason
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Jeff Martin, Photographer
wellington | OH | usa | Posted: 7:12 PM on 11.21.07
->> Doing my part to push this to the magic 50 number.
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Bryan Hulse, Photographer
Highlands Ranch | Co | USA | Posted: 8:45 PM on 11.21.07
->> Wow! A thread turned into personal attacks on galleries. Nice to see we have some self appointed gallery police here to attack those with a different political view than their own.

Lose the hate!
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Joe Cavaretta, Photographer
Ft Lauderdale | FL | USA | Posted: 9:04 PM on 11.21.07
->> As a former AP guy who worked overseas I would like to point out that the AP, actually very few foreign correspondencies, would not be able to cover conflicts on a daily basis if not for the brave "local hires," who work for low wages and frequently put their lives in danger.

It is not infrequent that one side or the other in such a situation attempts to discredit such journalists, especially when they produce work which is not viewed as helping the cause.

In such cases, the best that can be asked is for fairness in considering their fate.

Holding a person for 19 MONTHS before presenting charges or evidence does little to establish the credibility of the charges. I cannot say if these charges are true or not, but I believe the manner in which this case has been handled does very little to give any reasonable objective observer from whichever side of the political spectrum confidence that justice has been or will be served.

Remember, this is not a person who was caught carrying an assault rifle or setting up an IED. His crime, was being in the right place at the right time with a camera. The AP has gone to great lengths and expense to investigate these charges and has met only resistance.

Please, make no mistake, I do support the brave men and women who are doing a very though job over there, and if anybody is found to have caused them any harm, I believe punishment should be appropriate to the crime, a war crime.

Two things are very troubling about this case. The first is that many of us who are members of this forum, sports or otherwise, could easily find ourselves in similar situations- taking and publishing photos that a government may not be happy with.

Imagine that there are problems at the Olympics in China. (Anybody remember Tlatelolco in Mexico City, 1968?) What if the guy who is on the way back from photographing the 300m Free Rifle event comes across tanks rolling through a city? Should he fear for his freedom if he takes photos? After the precedent we have established in Iraq, can we now demand or expect fair treatment?

Secondly, we might not like everything that having a free press gives us in this country, but it is an important part of our freedoms and as such was recognized by the founding fathers- and they existed in a time when the media did not even pretend to have pretexts such as objectivity and fairness. So, if the goal in Iraq is to establish a free society, what kind of example are we setting?

As more than one person has pointed out here, WE are supposed to be the good guys.
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JohnPaul Greco, Photographer, Assistant
Milwaukee | WI | USA | Posted: 11:05 PM on 11.21.07
->> Matthias's comments above reflected on something I recently dealt with a few weeks ago..


I feel I should share this, because it really disturbed me!

A few weeks ago, I received this message in my e-mail:




This is a message sent from your SportsShooter.com member page at:
http://www.sportsshooter.com/john_paul

----------------------------------
Sender: Pam
Phone: --not supplied--
Email: Pam@pot.com
----------------------------------
This user's message:

Pipe down pin head, stop stirring the pot
you are not even a photojournalist



----------------------------------
Time: 6:30 pm Eastern
Date: October 28th, 2007
Sender's IP address: 24.6.134.22
Browser info: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X; en)
AppleWebKit/522.11.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.0.3 Safari/522.12.1




......So, this person who is impersonating a woman,...(I know who he is.. some Cluck who takes mundane, uninspiring photos for a living)..and didn't even have the guts to use his own name when contacting me privately, who called me an insulting name, who is a photojournalist, who I used to respect, calls ME a "pin head"..??

Apparently, this Cluck who likes to speak his mind, feels as though you need to be a "photojournalist" in order to qualify yourself as being worthy enough of expressing yourself on a message board made for SPORTS PHOTOGRAPHY!! My God,....what a pin head!!

The fact is, is that he is also wrong about his ASSertion.. I've been making a living doing freelance & staff photojournalism for the last 10 years. LOL, I even have press passes to prove it!!(One of them is on my Myspace profile gallery) & Since I meet his qualifications, I will continue to express myself here on this message board, regardless if he likes it or not.

:-)

JP
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Yamil Sued, Photographer, Photo Editor
Peoria | AZ | USA | Posted: 11:22 PM on 11.21.07
->> Thanks for the comments JP.

And no, I'm not a Photojournalist, not to I intend to be one!! I got my degree at Brooks in April 1985 with a Double major in Illustration Photography and Color Technology (Photolab Management, a useless degree with todays technology) I didn't know I needed to be a PJ and cover news in order to join this group, but seems that the narrow mind of some with their own biases override their common sense.

This is what I do and this is where I earn my living, and I'm not ashamed of it. I do it to make a living, not to make a political statement, I do it for the check.

BTW, this is also to help to achieve the magical 50 count.
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Ian L. Sitren, Photographer
Palm Springs | CA | USA | Posted: 11:47 PM on 11.21.07
->> "In war, truth is the first casualty" - Aeschylus, Greek tragic dramatist (525 BC - 456 BC)

"Vietnam was the first war ever fought without any censorship. Without censorship, things can get terribly confused in the public mind." - GENERAL WILLIAM WESTMORELAND, Time magazine, Apr. 5, 1982

And they said Iraq was not going to be another Vietnam, HA! I knew it would. I am just amazed that history did repeat itself so quickly in my lifetime.

Of topic or not, this is not freedom. This is b___s___!
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Jeffrey Haderthauer, Photographer
Wichita Falls | TX | USA | Posted: 12:03 AM on 11.22.07
->> David Butler-

Kindly tell me what facts I'm making up or misusing?

That Bilal stands a good chance of being murdered if turned over to the Iraqi justice system? His name is Hussein. Which is Sunni. He would likely be taken into the custody of the interior ministry- which is run by Shiite militias that have been inolved with ethnically cleansing mixed eighborhoods in Baghdad. What do you think will happen to Bilal Hussein in that scenario?

You know, blind obeidience and jingoism are dangerous things. American might does not neccessarily make right. Once upon a time, we gave Nazi and Japanese war criminals due process. Nazis.

I will take a chill pill when you take off your rose colored glasses.
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Mark Loundy, Photo Editor
San Jose | CA | USA | Posted: 12:12 AM on 11.22.07
->> Due process is a right belonging to all people, whether their government affords it to them or not. Neither the U.S. government nor the U.S. military have any moral right to deny due process to any person -- regardless of their nationality. Indeed, all agencies of the U.S. government have a fundamental moral responsibility to defend and assure due process to all people within their reach.

***

Personal attacks, such as the ones in this thread, have no place in any rational discussion area.

--Mark
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 9:51 AM on 11.22.07
->> from today's paper. (thanksgiving)
http://www.newsobserver.com/2196/story/784956.html
don't eat too much turkey! 8)
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Brad Wilder, Photographer, Assistant
Lexington | Ky | USA | Posted: 12:00 PM on 11.22.07
->> Every story I've seen about this is from the AP. Why should we assume that the AP is able to objectively report on this?
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Jeffrey Haderthauer, Photographer
Wichita Falls | TX | USA | Posted: 12:07 PM on 11.22.07
->> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/22/AR200609220...
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