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SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board

OT: Does anyone see anything wrong with this photo..?
JohnPaul Greco, Photographer, Assistant
Milwaukee | WI | USA | Posted: 11:24 AM on 08.15.07
->> http://news.yahoo.com/photos/ss/events/iraq/082701iraqplane/im:/070814/phot...

Discuss..

:-)

JP
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Ramsay de Give, Student/Intern, Photographer
Santa Fe | NM | USA | Posted: 11:26 AM on 08.15.07
->> High Powered Un-fired Rounds
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Eric Isaacs, Photographer
Santa Barbara | CA | USA | Posted: 11:28 AM on 08.15.07
->> JP,

It is a common occurrence for mischievous vandals to go around throwing bullets at elderly Iraqi women. Not everyone can afford a gun ya know.

EMI
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 11:29 AM on 08.15.07
->> ah yeah. were the bullets THROWN at her house. cause they sure weren't "fired".
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Andrew Smith, Photographer
Ross-shire | UK | Scotland | Posted: 11:30 AM on 08.15.07
->> Yes, the bullets haven't been fired. But note that the picture and caption are totally honest. Taking a photograph of someone lying, and reporting what they said in the caption, is still honest journalism. You could argue that it is the ultimate in objectivity. ('Lying' may be a strong word as I don't know the background to this image, but hypothetically...)
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Jim Bounds, Photographer
Raleigh | NC | usa | Posted: 11:31 AM on 08.15.07
->> The left one looks like a tracer round.
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Ron Manfredi, Photographer
Merrick | NY | | Posted: 11:32 AM on 08.15.07
->> Maybe they were thrown at the house?????
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Walt Middleton, Photographer, Assistant
Columbus | OH | USA | Posted: 11:47 AM on 08.15.07
->> NO...NO... I GOT IT...
THEY WERE FIRED FROM A SLING SHOT AT HER HOUSE...

Walt
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JohnPaul Greco, Photographer, Assistant
Milwaukee | WI | USA | Posted: 11:50 AM on 08.15.07
->> When I read the slug,...I wondered to myself,.....how would any photo editor ever allow such a photo to be published?

BTW, Andrew read my mind!

Good observation..

She is claiming that those bullets hit her house...& the only way that could have happened, in my estimation, is if someone chucked them at her dwelling..

However,..why publish this known to be false report in the first place?

JP
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Andrew Smith, Photographer
Ross-shire | UK | Scotland | Posted: 12:08 PM on 08.15.07
->> "However,..why publish this known to be false report in the first place?"

Because, in any dispute, one side lying is relevant. And in this case, news.
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Shaun Ward, Photographer
Perth | Tayside | Scotland UK | Posted: 1:41 PM on 08.15.07
->> Is that not those weapons of mass destruction Bush has been looking for?
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Yamil Sued, Photographer, Photo Editor
Peoria | AZ | USA | Posted: 1:45 PM on 08.15.07
->> Heck, she can send them to me!!

.223 Ammo is getting pricey in the US!!

Y
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Geoff Miller, Photographer
Portage | MI | USA | Posted: 1:49 PM on 08.15.07
->> To make matters worse, back in July AFP moved another photo from the same photographer of the same woman holding another "bullet" that she says "hit her bed" during a night-time raid by US and Iraqi troops. It's not clear from the way she's holding it if she's holding a bullet or another unfired round. But the "magic bullet" is not deformed in any way from striking her bed, nor does it exhibit any "rifling marks" that would indicate that it was fired through a barrel.
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Mark Smith, Photographer
Elk City | OK | USA | Posted: 1:55 PM on 08.15.07
->> Does the round on the right look strange to anyone else? Is it just the angle of the light that makes it appear slightly larger? It may well be just that it is against the black background, but it looks larger than the round on the left, and the reflection looks different also.
Dunno....just wondering if anyone else is seeing the same thing.


Disclaimer: No accusation of wrongdoing is being implied, nor should be inferred, by the post above.
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Yamil Sued, Photographer, Photo Editor
Peoria | AZ | USA | Posted: 2:00 PM on 08.15.07
->> The Round on the right might be a 6.8 Round, some SF teams are using M-4's in 6.8, it's actually a .270 Bullet fired from a 14" M4 Barrels and more effective than the 55gr 5.5mm/.223 Bullets.

Juts my $.02

Y
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Anthony Neste, Photographer, Photo Editor
FLAGLER BEACH, 321 | FL | USA | Posted: 2:08 PM on 08.15.07
->> HEY THAT'S MY UNCLE GUIDO!!!!!
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Jon Austria, Photographer
Roseburg | OR | USA | Posted: 2:11 PM on 08.15.07
->> after working on the desk for a few years now, i always find typos and confusing cutlines from foreign photojournalist. remember english is a second language for most of these guys working in Iraq. I believe it's up to the photo editor from agency to contact the photographer if possible and clarify, the meaning in the cutline. Just my 2 cents worth.
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Wesley R. Bush, Photographer
Nashville | TN | U.S. | Posted: 2:57 PM on 08.15.07
->> I agree that the photographer did the right thing in writing that she "said" they hit her house. But at the same time, if you're asking someone something and catch them in something that obviously isn't true, you can always ask for clarification or call them on it. He could have easily said, "but those haven't been fired yet," and she probably could have said, "I know. I meant these TYPE of bullets." Ok? Where are the bullet holes?
The photographer shouldn't just report what he hears. He should question and answer.
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Peter Huoppi, Photographer
Burlington/Pomfret | VT/CT | USA | Posted: 3:21 PM on 08.15.07
->> More commentary on this photo, and the photographer:

http://confederateyankee.mu.nu/archives/237174.php
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JohnPaul Greco, Photographer, Assistant
Milwaukee | WI | USA | Posted: 3:37 PM on 08.15.07
->> Just wait until after we surrender in Iraq,...after that, ammo prices for the AR15 will drop to $2.95 for a box of Wolf again.. ;-)

JP
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Eric Canha, Photographer
Brockton | MA | United States | Posted: 3:44 PM on 08.15.07
->> 6.8, .270, M4's, Yamil you're starting to scare me ;)
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Afton Almaraz, Student/Intern, Photographer
Ventura | CA | USA | Posted: 4:06 PM on 08.15.07
->> Jp, I don't think were ever planning on surrendering in Iraq. That is impossibility. Only possible if, *coughing*...excuse me, Hillary was pres. However, back to the topic. I'm sure the image is propaganda. Making the Americans look like cowboy's going around shooting up grandma's house. Lame. http://www.liveleak.com
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Andrew Smith, Photographer
Ross-shire | UK | Scotland | Posted: 4:17 PM on 08.15.07
->> Wesley: "The photographer shouldn't just report what he hears. He should question and answer."

Different people have different ideas about this. For example, once I mentioned on this board that I had contacted someone to find out if a particular politician had any 'right' to be in a photograph, as it appeared to me that he had jumped in to the group photo to take part-credit for the group's work. If I remember correctly, a number of people expressed disapproval of me checking on something like that, whereas I believed it was part of my job to do so. (And I still do believe that.)
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Bret Kelley, Photographer
Brownsburg | IN | USA | Posted: 4:43 PM on 08.15.07
->> As I hit the above link to show it to a co-worker, it has changed and I can't find the photo anymore. Are any of you finding the same??
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Mark Peters, Photographer
Highland | IL | USA | Posted: 4:45 PM on 08.15.07
->> So first we have the same rescuer showing up in a multitude of images - at least some of which have been suggested as being staged.

Now we have the same woman showing up in more than one photo showing bullets hitting some portion of her home....and in the case of this woman, the same photog takes both shots?

Um....I ask whats being manipulated here:
1)the photog by the woman
2)the editor by the photog using the woman as a prop for a stock shot of the aggrieved party
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Bret Kelley, Photographer
Brownsburg | IN | USA | Posted: 4:54 PM on 08.15.07
->> My bad,, I found the photo. It just is not the one that comes up first anymore.
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Ron Alvey, Photographer
Lebanon | OH | USA | Posted: 4:55 PM on 08.15.07
->> I don't see any mud.
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Mark Peters, Photographer
Highland | IL | USA | Posted: 7:01 PM on 08.15.07
->> The link is now pointing to a much different image
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Yamil Sued, Photographer, Photo Editor
Peoria | AZ | USA | Posted: 8:02 PM on 08.15.07
->> "6.8, .270, M4's, Yamil you're starting to scare me ;)"

Do you know who my clients are?? :D

I'm coverint the USPSA Handgun Nationals for S&W in Tulsa in 3-1/2 weeks.

I have to learn everything about the sport before I can cover it well.

Y
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Drew Broadley, Photographer
Wellington | NZ | New Zealand | Posted: 8:45 PM on 08.15.07
->> Obviously Iraq stock photography is becoming a big business, I keep seeing the same models in all the photos.
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JohnPaul Greco, Photographer, Assistant
Milwaukee | WI | USA | Posted: 10:07 PM on 08.15.07
->> Drew, you reminded me of something that I thought I'd cross check..


I recall the stories that ran where Israel was accused of targeting & destroying several Red Cross ambulances last Summer. There was a woman who was spotted in two separate photographs, wailing after bombs had dropped in her neighborhood that some people suggested could have been staged. Come to think of it, she does resemble the "wailing woman" quite a bit:

http://confederateyankee.mu.nu/archives/237174.php


http://www.zombietime.com/reuters_photo_fraud/


What do you think..?

JP
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Mark Loundy, Photo Editor
San Jose | CA | USA | Posted: 10:34 PM on 08.15.07
->> Sorry, I didn't realize that wthis was about the same image. The link in John's message currently leads to a photo of a guy standing in front of a helicopter.

This should link to the actual image in question.

http://news.yahoo.com/photo/070814/photos_wl_afp/9b642ce03da0ca6ebe1cf27538...

--Mark
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Andrew Smith, Photographer
Ross-shire | UK | Scotland | Posted: 10:39 PM on 08.15.07
->> I think that Confederate Yankee site makes several baseless accusations. Repetition of a theme throughout a photographer's career is not proof of setting-up purportedly candid or spontaneous photos.

For example, I'll tell you right now that the next music workshop I photograph will yield a photo of a teacher taken over a student's shoulder, with the student out-of-focus at one side of the frame. Not because I'll set-up the shot (I won't) but because it's a standard shot, easy to do quickly, and it has a strong narrative. I did it at the last workshop, and the one before that, the one before that, etc...

It is becoming clear that there are reasons to be suspicious of Wissam al-Okaili but (1) there is no PROOF of any wrong-doing, and (2) any working photog knows that we often produce similar shots from similar events, it's the nature of the job, so he should be given the benefit of the doubt.
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JohnPaul Greco, Photographer, Assistant
Milwaukee | WI | USA | Posted: 10:50 PM on 08.15.07
->> Andrew,...thanks for the reply,... I should mention that the reason for me posting the link to the "Confederate Yankee" website, was so that the photo of the woman with the bullets could be seen, because as others have mentioned, the photo is no longer the first in the slide-show lineup....instead, a different photo is now showing.. The second link however, shows some stagging taking place.. In regards to your point regarding the coverage of events.....absolutely...I agree with you completely.. The old saying comes to mind....."How many different ways can you slice a salami?".. :-)

Mark, thanks for finding the photo again! :-)

http://news.yahoo.com/photo/070814/photos_wl_afp/9b642ce03da0ca6ebe1cf27538...

I hope we're all clear.. :-)

JP
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Andrew Smith, Photographer
Ross-shire | UK | Scotland | Posted: 11:20 PM on 08.15.07
->> Ha, just been reading through the Zombie Time link, and the bit about "The Passion of the Toys" raised a wry smile. A friend once asked me why I carry so much gear around with me all the time, and in the conversation that followed I listed all of the stuff in my bag, including: "A cuddly toy, just throw it down at the scene of a road crash and you've got a great shot right there." She actually thought I was serious at first. I suppose it's a good sign that I've made the same joke to other people since then and they've all taken it as a joke immediately. Kind of hilarious / weird / sickening to think that someone has really done something like that.
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Yamil Sued, Photographer, Photo Editor
Peoria | AZ | USA | Posted: 11:42 PM on 08.15.07
->> JP,

What??

You think this Photo Journalist, Photo Editor and Agency had an agenda??

An anti-American Agenda??

Never;-)


Y
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Geoff Miller, Photographer
Portage | MI | USA | Posted: 11:42 PM on 08.15.07
->> "Come to think of it, she does resemble the "wailing woman" quite a bit"

John Paul, perhaps the photographer was using a new version of the "Flat Fatima"!
http://www.thepeoplescube.com/red/viewtopic.php?t=798
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Mark Loundy, Photo Editor
San Jose | CA | USA | Posted: 1:54 AM on 08.16.07
->> Yamil,

I really don't think so. I think it was more a case of understaffing resulting in lack of oversight. I'd love to hear an insider's description of how images move through their system and how they apply editorial quality control.

--Mark
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Yamil Sued, Photographer, Photo Editor
Peoria | AZ | USA | Posted: 2:03 AM on 08.16.07
->> Mark,

I wish I was as trusting in the system as you are!!

Y
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Michael Myers, Photographer, Student/Intern
Miami Beach | FL | USA | Posted: 2:49 AM on 08.16.07
->> Methinks I disagree with most of you.

While it's obvious to us that those bullets have never been fired, it's quite likely that the woman in the photo knows nothing about weapons, guns, and so on, and if she found those bullets outside her home, she might very well really believe that they were fired at her house.

Yeah, those of us here reading this discussion, and looking at the photo, probably know better - but my guess is that she wouldn't know the first thing about bullets, and if she found those outside her house, she'd naturally assume that they were the ones that were fired at it.


I suspect that both the photographer and the person who wrote the text also know better... and chances are that the woman said something in her local language, which someone had to translate into English. I'm guessing they didn't do this too well.
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Samuel Lewis, Photographer
Miami | FL | USA | Posted: 10:07 AM on 08.16.07
->> Michael:

While the woman may not understand anything about weapons or ammunition, I dare say the photographer does. If the photographer genuinely lacks the intelligence to comprehend what he is reporting through his images, then his reports are of little newsworthy value. If, on the other hand, the photographer knows that the statements are false, he has helped to perpetuate that lie through the sin of omission.

If someone says something false, and the photographer can explain why the statement is false, he should do so. The caption should have made it clear that the rounds in her hand are unfired instead of perpetuating a knowingly false image. Anyone reporting the news has an obligation to attempt to be objective and unbiased (at least as unbiased as is possible). It is clear that the photographer has a personal agenda, that he's pursuing that agenda at the expense of his own intellectual honesty, and in turn, he raises a serious question regarding the reliability and accuracy of information being reported by AFP.

Respectfully, when reporting ceases to be objective and honest, it is little more than propaganda. In light of the fact that this is not the first incident involving the photographer and images/captions that are highly questionable, I am amazed that anyone would attempt to defend this as a misunderstanding or language issue.
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Yamil Sued, Photographer, Photo Editor
Peoria | AZ | USA | Posted: 11:12 AM on 08.16.07
->> Samuel,

Well said!

This is not the first time this photographer has done this, the firs time, OK, it might have been a mistake and i can understand it, after that, it pure propaganda and he has an agenda!! PERIOD!!
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Adam Vogler, Photographer
Pittsburg | KS | USA | Posted: 12:26 PM on 08.16.07
->> Let me first say that this is a the very least an example of EXTREMELY poor captioning and editing.

But I'm amazed at how many photographers are so ready to assume that one of our fellows is deliberately attempting to mislead. A fellow photographer who is risking both his life and possibly the lives of his family by going out into the streets of Iraq to bear witness.

I've read through every link that has been posted and the only "evidence" I've seen are the illogical ranting of several individuals who are openly proud of their bias.

Before I pass judgment I'd like to have some more information.

1. I'd like to see the photo from July that is supposed to show the same woman I haven't been able to find it. Is it possible that they are the same photo sold to different agencies or taken the same day and simply moved on different days?

2. How many times was the caption information translated. Hell this could just be a error in translation. Granted, the public certainly deserves much better but before you pass judgment on this man ask yourself how many times you've written a cut-line correctly and had it get messed up during the editing process when everyone involved was in the same building and spoke english as their first language.

3. How much experience and education in journalism does Wissam al-Okaili? He may be new to this profession.

4. Lets just take a minute to think about the difficulties of working in a war zone and dealing with editors on a different continent. This is obviously a mistake, a BIG mistake, but where is the proof of malice.

This is certainly a example of poor journalism but before it is assumed that Wissam al-Okaili has an agenda maybe we should find out what the FACTS of the situation are. That's what journalism is about.

I certainly think that we should back up one of our own when they are attacked by these bloggers. There certainly needs to be an investigation and I by no means think we should be blindly supportive but until I hear both sides of the story I'm going to continue in my belief that while its bad journalism it is most likely simply a screw up caused by poor editorial oversite. The simplest explantion is usualy the correct one. It its much more likley that there is just bad editing than some massive conspiracy to mislead the public as these bloggers seem to believe.
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Andrew Smith, Photographer
Ross-shire | UK | Scotland | Posted: 12:56 PM on 08.16.07
->> I agree Adam, you explained my own views very eloquently, thank you.
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Mark Peters, Photographer
Highland | IL | USA | Posted: 1:03 PM on 08.16.07
->> Blindy defending someone merely because they are a member of the same profession would seem to me to run a much higher risk of tarnishing the profession than protecting it. Reserving judgement perhaps may be warranted, but defending them as an automatic response?

How is this any different than the frequent criticism of other professions (i.e. law enforcement) for circling the wagons, protecting one of their own, etc.

I would suggest that a profession policing itself - refusing to tolerate such activity - holding itself to a higher standard than the general public itself would expect - strengthens the community. A profession which has already experienced several high exposure black eyes should be reasonably expected to take even greater pains to protect its credibility.
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Geoff Miller, Photographer
Portage | MI | USA | Posted: 1:25 PM on 08.16.07
->> Adam,

The first photo can be found on Getty's site. Search on "Wissam Al-Okaili bullet hit her bed". The view of the woman's face is different, but many of the facial features match up.

I think that it's certainly possible for locals to dupe photojournalists. A case in point was a photo taken in the last year that showed a villager in Afghanistan holding what he claimed was the tip of a US "missile" that had destroyed his family's home. It didn't take long before military experts pointed out the "missile" tip was in fact an unused Soviet-era tank round left over from the Soviet/Afghan War. I think it's understandable that photographers aren't expected to be experts in military munitions, nor should they be required to have search Jane's reference guides when they are writing captions. However, we've seen plenty of "fishy" photos (some that are explainable, others that are not) recently coming from local stringers in war torn areas of the Middle-east. So I hope you'll excuse some of our skepticism in this case.
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Dave Amorde, Photographer
Lake Forest | CA | USA | Posted: 1:34 PM on 08.16.07
->> I find it interesting that a thread about shoot-from-the-hip journalism contains the same SFTH attacks, defenses, and leaps of logic as the original reporter is being accussed of. I certainly have no clue what this indivual is trying to accomplish, nor do I have any special insights into what his core motivations are. That being said, I can also state that the entire cultural fabric of the Arabs, Persians, Kurds, etc., completely mystifies me.

One thing I can say with certainty: This is at least the second thread started within as many days by Mr. Greco that is captioned as being "OT". JohnPaul, if subjects like staged news photos or equipment insurance and on-the-job accidents are "OT", what do you consider to be on "On Topic"? I would hate to see threads of substance be ignored by interested parties simply because they are labled as off topic, when they are as topical as any other.
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Yamil Sued, Photographer, Photo Editor
Peoria | AZ | USA | Posted: 1:41 PM on 08.16.07
->> Agree, this is not Off Topic, on the contrary, this is right On Topic with what we are trying to do here, represent the truth, not to fabricate it, or modify it to meet our personal agendas.
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JohnPaul Greco, Photographer, Assistant
Milwaukee | WI | USA | Posted: 3:09 PM on 08.16.07
->> Dave,.....because the subjects of my posts had nothing to do with shooting sports.... hence the name "sports shooter".. so,....I just labeled them as "OT",...so I wouldn't be flamed by anyone here.. :-)

Although, I thought the post about my accident would help me in sorting through the mess I am presently going through,...and it has.... plus the topic of this one,.....I just wanted to get the community's response to what I personally thought might have been propaganda by Middle Eastern reports..(again)..which is also OT to the sports shooter who comes here to learn more about shooting a ball game,...or what radio triggers to buy.. :-)

I'm glad everyone participated in this topic.. I guess I do like to "stir the waters" a bit..and heck,...at least this site is more "lively" now days.. :-)

Cheers!

JP
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 3:23 PM on 08.16.07
->> "I guess I do like to "stir the waters" a bit..and heck,...at least this site is more "lively" now days.. :-)"

yeah JP, this site was SOOOOOOOOOOO boring before you signed up. I used to use sportsshooter.com to put me to sleep at night.............
hehehehehhehehehehehehehehahahahahahahahahhahaha
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