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VT College Photog Mistaken as Shooter
Jody Gomez, Photographer
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Murrieta | CA | USA | Posted: 11:05 AM on 04.17.07 |
| ->> I wonder why they didn't release his camera when they let him go. Can they keep your stuff like that? |
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Gene Boyars, Photographer
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Matawan | NJ | United States | Posted: 11:26 AM on 04.17.07 |
->> Patrick,
What everyone needs to realize in a situation like they had a Va Tech yesterday it becomes a matter of grabbing people first and asking questions later. The school and the public saftey people had already screwed up big time after the first shootings so anyone remotely matching the shooters description is going to be stopped. Add to that a photographer hiding behind rocks and a podium and not moving out of the area when ordered to so by the authorities, he is lucky the just detained him. I really think they were too busy to even consider anything regarding releasing his cameras at the time they let him go. I can give you a ton of maybes regarding the cameras and his other stuff but I am willing to bet they just did not have the time to deal with it when they turned him loose. |
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William Luther, Photographer
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San Antonio | TX | USA | Posted: 11:38 AM on 04.17.07 |
->> No, they should not keep his stuff.
But, as the saying goes, possesion is 9/10th of the law. Now he has what I guess will be a long road trying to get his images and equipment back.
More than likely they will argue that his images are now evidence.
And despite lots of case-law supporting journalists and preventing seizure of images, he still has to convince them to give his stuff back. |
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Jeff Martin, Photographer
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wellington | OH | usa | Posted: 11:45 AM on 04.17.07 |
->> The school and the public saftey people had already screwed up big time after the first shootings.
Gene, this seems to be jumping to conclusions. |
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Gene Boyars, Photographer
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Matawan | NJ | United States | Posted: 11:59 AM on 04.17.07 |
| ->> Jeff, There is a two hour gap between the shootings. Everything that has been reported so far indicates that school officials did not act to secure the campus or warn the students. As a father, that is screwing up big time in my book. IF I were reporting the story I could not and would not say that..but commenting here I don't think that I am out of line. Whether they really did screw up or not is not the real issue, all hell was breaking loose at the time so anyone fitting the description, seen hiding behind rocks and podiums and not leaving the area when ordered to do so is lucky he was only detained. |
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Trevor Walker, Photographer
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Powell | OH | USA | Posted: 12:02 PM on 04.17.07 |
| ->> Gene, What would you have done? |
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Jeff Martin, Photographer
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wellington | OH | usa | Posted: 12:07 PM on 04.17.07 |
->> Gene, they may have screwed up. I don't know. I also am not sure how they would go about securing a 2500 acre campus. I don't know if there is a way to warn 25,000 students, more than half those living off campus.
Maybe there is a way this could have been prevented. I can't see one. I just think it's a little early to jump to conclusions. |
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Gene Boyars, Photographer
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Matawan | NJ | United States | Posted: 12:26 PM on 04.17.07 |
->> Keeping in mind that I have never been to Blacksburg, VA, I have no training in school adminstration and I am being very very theoretical here.
1. Establish more of a police presence quickly.
2. Open any and all avenues of communicaiton to alert students and staff
as a parent I was very happy my son chose to go to smaller schools on smaller campuses.
As a photo-journalist, I would have grabbed my longest glass, headed to high ground and seen what the situation was before immersing myself in it.
Now, can we get this thread back to Patrick's original purpose--to discuss the reality of a student photographer being caught up in the chaos on his campus while trying to do his job. |
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Dan Megna, Photographer
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San Diego | CA | USA | Posted: 1:24 PM on 04.17.07 |
->> I look at all of this from a bit different perspective. In addition to being a photographer and journalist I’ve also been a cop for almost 30 years. One low point of my career was being one the first officers to arrive on scene to a school shooting with an active shooter here in San Diego. I understand that photographers have a job to do but so do the cops.
When a cop shows up at hot-crime scene, especially with an active shooter, there isn’t a program that identifies the bad guy from the news crews or general public. What does a bad guy look like? How many are there? What weapons are in use? How large of an area needs to be contained to secure the scene so as to protect the public? Despite what most folks apparently believe, in a situation like VA, cops are trying to do the right thing and not get killed themselves. And ya know what? They really don’t care if someone has their feelings hurt or their rights “violated.” They are just trying desperately to fix the mess they have on their hands.
In this situation the cops were told the critical threat in the “mess” was an Asian male. The cops observed and detained an Asian male, who just happened to have a camera, as a possible suspect. When they determined all was well he was released. Ok, so they took his ID and camera and the article states, “they would contact him about his possessions.” Heck, even the photographer stated, “I think they handled it ok. When you think about the fact that about 30 people died, there’s so much confusion, and no one knows what’s going on. I feel they had to do their job and can’t blame them for being cautious.”
Regardless of what cops do or don’t do, they know there is gonna be a ton of shit and finger pointing coming their way. They know the decisions they made and tactics they used in the heat of battle will be scrutinized and criticized by the media, so called “experts” and cop-haters for weeks on end from the comfort and safety of a desk or TV studio far from the action.
We’re mistakes made? Maybe. But in this particular instance it appears the cops did their job and the “victim” of this “injustice” seems pretty happy. So where’s the problem? |
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Bob Ford, Photographer
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Lehighton | Pa | USA | Posted: 1:40 PM on 04.17.07 |
| ->> Great post Dan. |
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Michael Granse, Photographer
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Urbana | IL | USA | Posted: 2:02 PM on 04.17.07 |
->> It simply is not practical to initiate a complete lockdown of an entire campus as a result of a single isolated crime, even if it was a murder.
The police can not be expected to call out the SWAT team and an army of troops in riot gear every time they find a crime scene with a pair of gunshot victims.
It is tragic that two people died in the first shooting, but I highly doubt that there was anything about the first crime scene that gave any hint whatsoever about the events that were about to unfold.
Despite this, the police will be blamed, the shooter's teachers will be blamed, the supervisors of the teachers will be blamed, the psychiatrist will be blamed and if there is no psychiatrist then everyone who knew the shooter and never referred him to a psychiatrist will also be blamed.
Violent video games will be blamed along with the internet, pornography, modern music, and illegal drugs. Guns will be blamed. Lawmakers will be blamed for not doing enough to control guns. The NRA will blame the lawmakers for making it illegal for the other students to defend themselves with guns of their own. Liberals will blame conservatives who will blame the independents who will blame both liberals and conservatives. Moderates will watch from the sidelines, agreeing with everyone but cleverly refusing to take sides or take action. All will agree to a nonbinding resolution expressing disapproval for the shootings.
With all of this blame being distributed, there will be little of it left to assign to Cho Seung-hui, a 23 year old English major from South Korea who has been identified as the gunman.
Cho Seung-hui is a person who for a multitude of reasons or possibly for no reason at all decided to murder a large number of people. We will never know with certainty why he did it, and pointing the finger of blame at anyone other than him is simply an excercise in people's need to make sense of the senseless.
Blaming people whose only mistake was being on duty at the time of this tragedy will not solve anything. |
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Daniel Plassmann, Photographer
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York | SC | United States | Posted: 2:04 PM on 04.17.07 |
| ->> If any of you guys have access to the AP wire they have a picture of the person in the story getting arrested buy police. |
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Jody Gomez, Photographer
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Murrieta | CA | USA | Posted: 2:08 PM on 04.17.07 |
| ->> I heard a great analogy on the news about why they didn't lock down the campus after the initial shooting. The analogy was that it would be akin to evacuating an entire neighborhood because of a shooting inside one person's home. The analogy made the delay in a campus lock down make more sense to me. |
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Neal Vaughan, Photographer
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St. Joseph | MI | usa | Posted: 2:10 PM on 04.17.07 |
->> "so anyone fitting the description, seen hiding behind rocks and podiums and not leaving the area when ordered to do so is lucky he was only detained."
According to the story, he complied with the officer's orders to leave the area. I'm assuming since they confiscated two ID's, one was a journalism ID. If a cop was to observe someone:
1. actively photographing in a journalist manner
2. has (presumably) a press ID
3. complies with their requests to leave the area
4. Does not have weapons /blood on them
And whose ONLY connection to being a possible shooter is his race and gender, it seems to me a stretch to detain him for several hours and worse, confiscate his equipment. I'm aware it was a chaotic situation, and that the photographer himself "understands", but I'm still bothered by it. He wasn't even placed in a police car to be transported elsewhere for 3 hours!
According to the photographer, one officer said "We've got a suspect matching the profile". No, they had a person matching the profile. Unless something was completely left out of the story, they had no reason to consider him a suspect other than his race. And from what I found on the web, about 8% of VT's students are asian. Just on the student population alone , over 1000 students were "suspects".
Disturbing if you ask me, and I'm not the type to jump on the "racial profiling" bandwagon otherwise. |
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Neal Vaughan, Photographer
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St. Joseph | MI | usa | Posted: 2:16 PM on 04.17.07 |
->> "The analogy was that it would be akin to evacuating an entire neighborhood because of a shooting inside one person's home. The analogy made the delay in a campus lock down make more sense to me."
Sure, it makes sense if you know where the shooter is, or have them in custody. If you don't, I would think you have to consider that person a threat to the general community. I can't count how many times that I have gone to bank robberies where an armed suspect escaped, and schools have been locked down, homes searched door-to-door, apartment complexes blocked off, etc. And in those situations, the suspect didn't kill anyone, just used the threat of a gun.
Sorry to go OT. |
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Bob Ford, Photographer
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Lehighton | Pa | USA | Posted: 3:01 PM on 04.17.07 |
| ->> Neal what I find interesting is you seem more upset by the police officers' action than the person detained. |
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Jody Gomez, Photographer
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Murrieta | CA | USA | Posted: 3:27 PM on 04.17.07 |
->> Neal, good point. I didn't think of it that way.
Jody |
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David Harpe, Photographer
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Louisville | KY | USA | Posted: 3:44 PM on 04.17.07 |
->> When these situations happen, information comes in from a wide range of sources and to different people. A simple miscommunication at any point can lead to a tragic mistake. It doesn't mean people were lax, incompetent or anything else.
No one here knows really what went on. The officials themselves probably don't have an accurate timeline yet of who called who, what information was distributed, and who acted on that information. The investigation in progress will reveal all of that in due time. If someone wasn't doing their job correctly, it will eventually come out. But a day after the event is not the time to be calling for resignations. |
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David Griffin, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Concord | NC | USA | Posted: 6:04 PM on 04.17.07 |
| ->> I would like to know if his CF cards come back untouched or "deleted." |
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Chuck Steenburgh, Photographer
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Lexington | VA | USA | Posted: 7:48 PM on 04.17.07 |
| ->> I don't think even the investigators have anywhere near all the facts yet. No one here is in any position to proclaim that anyone has "screwed up big time." |
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William Luther, Photographer
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San Antonio | TX | USA | Posted: 7:49 PM on 04.17.07 |
->> Dan,
At least for me, the main concern is not the detention of the photographer. It's the confiscation of, and failure to promptly return, the equipment.
While I wish a journalist had not been detained, I understand that in a hot situation police don't know who the good guys and bad guys are. But they clearly finally decided he wasn't a bad guy and decided to retain his equipment anyways.
Although the full details clearly aren't completely known at this point about that incident, in general, there is a long set of case law that prohibits police from doing what it appears they did - which is seize a working journalist's cameras and images.
While on the surface this may seem like a small thing in light of the gravity of the larger situation, this still is something that needs, in my opinion, to be addressed.
I would also add that just because the photographer is not unhappy about the incident doesn't change the issues involved. |
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Geoff Miller, Photographer
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Portage | MI | USA | Posted: 9:41 PM on 04.17.07 |
->> "It simply is not practical to initiate a complete lockdown of an entire campus as a result of a single isolated crime, even if it was a murder."
I heard the president of one of our state universities (Central Michigan U.) on the radio this AM coming to the defense of the VT president and administration. He also referenced an on-line article at The Chronical of Higher Education http://chronicle.com/free/2007/04/2007041703n.htm that backed up a lot of his points about the Monday morning QB'ing of how VT reacted.
The CMU president said they had a successful lock-down a year or so ago when a student was attacked on campus, but he said it was easy to pull off because it was in the evening when there were very few classes and the students were mostly in or near their dorms. In the case of VT, the 1st incident happended before the bulk of administrators were in their offices for the day or were in transit. As for the students, most of them were either out the door or scrambling to get to classes... so how effective would a 8:00 AM e-mail have been? How could word has been effective sent to all of the students already sitting in classrooms? Should they set of the fire alarms? Should they set off the tornado sirens?
As for the detained photographer... They probably took his equipment when it still wasn't clear who is was, but they've probably had a lot more important things to tend to instead of getting the stuff back to the kid post-haste when this story was written. |
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Mike Ullery, Photographer
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Troy | OH | USA | Posted: 10:00 PM on 04.17.07 |
->> Dan is absolutely correct. I, too, was a cop for a number of years. I was never involved in a school shooting but had my fair share of "moments". Unless you've been there,you don't know what it's like. And like it or not, going into an area carrying a camera, while admittedly full of tension, isn't anything like going in carrying a gun with the health and well-being of everyone around you at stake.
Were things there a little chaotic? You bet. But from everything that I've read and watched, law enforcement did an admirable job. Michael's got a point. As this plays out the media and the public are going to attempt to blame everyone but the shooter for this tragedy not ending sooner and with less loss of life. If you honestly think that you could personally have done better, in the words of Col. Nathan Jessup in "A Few Good Men", "Stand a post" yourself.
Did the police detain the wrong guy. Yeah. Was he abused? No. The incident is over. Many innocent lives were lost. Many others will be haunted for years. And when you get down to it, there is only one person to blame...and he died after killing 32 innocent people. |
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Tanner Johnson, Photographer, Student/Intern
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Bowling Green | KY | USA | Posted: 10:01 PM on 04.17.07 |
->> “When you think about the fact that about 30 people died, there’s so much confusion, and no one knows what’s going on. I feel they had to do their job and can’t blame them for being cautious.”
That's straight from the article. If he's not worried about it why are we.
Over 30 people died yesterday, and you guys would be worried about your equipment not getting back to you right away? That's over 60 parents who no longer have that child, their pride and joy for over 18 years. Hundreds of kids are without their younger or older siblings. Childrens are without fathers and mothers.
Why are we worried about this? He knows the police have much bigger fish to fry than to worry about his equipment, so why do we care. I'm sure he is happy to be alive, and everyone here should be thankful not more people were hurt. Look at it from his shoes. |
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Patrick Smith, Student/Intern, Photo Editor
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Forest Hill | MD | USA | Posted: 10:20 PM on 04.17.07 |
->> I never made a comment about this situation being unfair or wrong. I just think it was something we could relate to.
Nonetheless, now that I just read the NPPA article on Alan Kim/The Roanoke Times, (below) I now realize that I saw the picture on AP yesterday of the student photog handcuffed.
I cannot find it anymore.
NPPA Article on Kim: http://www.nppa.org/news_and_events/news/2007/04/virginia01.html |
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William Maner, Photographer
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Biloxi | MS | USA | Posted: 10:28 PM on 04.17.07 |
->> One thing to consider in this day of MySpace and YouTube as well as other photo blogs and such, is that police don't know if the photographer, who was an Asian male like the shooter, could have been a friend of the shooter and was chronicling the shooter's madness.
I recall the two young men involved in the Columbine shooting took videos and still pictures of each other to post on the Internet in the days leading up to the Columbine massacre.
I think as a precaution, the police kept the equipment so they could check out the pictures to make sure the photographer might have been taking pictures of his friend or associate on his rampage. |
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Dan Megna, Photographer
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San Diego | CA | USA | Posted: 10:58 PM on 04.17.07 |
->> Mike, Tanner and William make excellent points, as do many of the rest of you. In a perfect world, yeah, he oughta have his stuff returned asap. But having been in those officers’ shoes before, I can assure you, in situations such as we saw in VA, that photographers stuff falls pretty low on the priority list, as it should.
Personally, I believe that along with a photographer’s "rights" to have access to these types of scenes to report on what is happening, it comes with it an unwritten understanding that you may very well encounter some rather unpleasant consequences. Like it or not, that's the price of doing business in this type of environment. |
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Jeffery Jones, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Gallup | NM | USA | Posted: 10:13 AM on 04.18.07 |
->> I was not going to chime in here, but I am concerned by the number of people who seem to think that just because there is something major happening/going wrong, that gives law enforcement the right to ignore people's rights and get away with doing little things wrong. Where does it say that rules and laws only apply when everything is going well?
The student was detained? Understandable. That was a safety issue. But to hold him for several hours, decide he was not a threat and release him because he was not a threat, but keep his equipment anyway is NOT understandable. This was a couple hours later. When he was let go his gear should have gone with him. Or do things like the right to protection from search and seizure of property no longer matter?
Dan said that covering events comes with unpleasant consequences - how is it to be expected that those consequences would come from the police? In my little corner of the news world I am getting harassed by police on a regular basis for showing up to cover things like car fires and fender benders. Being harassed is supposed to be an expected price of doing business? I strongly disagree.
I am just amazed by the number of Americans who are falling into the mind-set that denying people their liberty and freedom is fine if it suits an officials agenda. Maybe I am in the wrong profession because I still think that the public has a right to access of information about what the government is doing, and that the press is supposed to be allowed to inform that public. |
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Chuck Steenburgh, Photographer
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Lexington | VA | USA | Posted: 10:21 AM on 04.18.07 |
->> Jeffery et al,
I think people are trying to recognize the difference between individual people acting human in a chaotic situation, petty bureaucratics drunk with power (real or usually imagined), and a concerted effort by government to curtail rights in the name of security (note I am talking about three scenarios here).
I think most of us recognize that all three exist in our society. The first is understandable and perhaps forgiveable (though all should strive to avoid it), the second a PITA and little more, and the third something to be seriously concerned about.
Chuck |
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Will Powers, Photographer
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Denver | CO | USA | Posted: 4:51 PM on 04.18.07 |
->> The hard part of this discussion for me is what if the description of the shooter was white male wearing glasses. Should they, would they handcuff every white male because they could have thrown their glasses away? He had credentials (we think). If he had someone chronicaling his actions, it could have been anyone, not just another Asian. There is no reason they should have put the guy on the ground. Interview him and check him for guns.
I understand that the situation was chaotic, but good sense should prevail, not racism. |
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Joe Cavaretta, Photographer
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Ft Lauderdale | FL | USA | Posted: 6:13 PM on 04.18.07 |
->> I do have empathy for the police on the scene... this was a horrible situation. However:
It is not the photographer's equipment that was taken, it was his PHOTOS and his ability to take PHOTOS. To record the worst mass shooting in U.S. history.
The photographer whose pictures were seen all around the world, Alan Kim-
http://www.nppa.org/news_and_events/news/2007/04/virginia01.html
also fit the "profile," an Asian male wearing glasses. It could have just as easily been him who was arrested.
The point is, just because the adrenaline is pumping and there is chaos all about, common sense should not be thrown out the window. This kid was the photographer for the student newspaper, who more than anyone else should have been able to have documented this event? As soon as they figured that out, he should have been allowed to continue to do his job.
I am not defending sensationalism- I am defending the right to record history. Alan Kim's photos will be what comes to mind when this sad, tragic event is remembered from now on. They will be printed in history books.
I am reminded of Thomas Franklin's flag raising photo from 9-11. I read his experiences that day. He was threatened with arrest six times trying to do his job. Is that necessary? Judging from the numerous posts here, lately, it is becoming quite common.
I guess there will always be a good excuse for excess when history is unfolding before our eyes. Uncertian situation, danger, chaos. I just don't see how that is justification to "go after the guy with the camera."
Yes, I do get it, I do feel horrible for the families and thier loss. Today, we are all Hoakies. But that is not the issue here. |
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Jeff Martin, Photographer
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wellington | OH | usa | Posted: 6:16 PM on 04.18.07 |
| ->> Will. the description was asian male, close cropped hair, and dark jacket. As much as some would like it not to be true, his Asian appearance is a part of what makes him fit the desc. It immediately rules out 90%+ of the student body. Do I think every Asiain looking person on campus should be arrested? No. I just think it would be insane to ignore the "Asain" part of the desc. for fear of seeming racist. |
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Neal Vaughan, Photographer
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St. Joseph | MI | usa | Posted: 1:45 AM on 04.19.07 |
->> "Neal what I find interesting is you seem more upset by the police officers' action than the person detained."
Perhaps because I'm sitting in the comfort of my living room recliner, and he was working in a virtual warzone. Perhaps because he is simply happy to not be victim #34, I am more upset about it than him. I'm not losing sleep over this, but it rankles me.
If he or anyone else chooses to dismiss a (perceived) wrongdoing done upon them, fine. That does not mean that the issue should be dropped by others. Or not discussed simply because it happened in the context of a (much) larger tragedy and injustice. |
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David Harpe, Photographer
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Louisville | KY | USA | Posted: 8:30 AM on 04.19.07 |
->> Take down
I don't think anyone in the general public would have much of a problem with the way the police acted in this situation. Even the photographer was okay with it. To classify him being handcuffed as they "took him to the ground" is not accurate. More than likely they pointed a gun at him and told him to get on the ground, then handcuffed him once he was there. A big difference. Getting "taken down" most likely would have resulted in injury and damaged equipment. By the photographer's own account it seems the cops acted in a very professional manner. He was even having semi-joking conversation with them as he waited.
Should they have given him his gear back sooner? Yeah, probably. But to do that probably takes a ton of paperwork, and it's not like the police weren't busy. It would be understandable if getting his gear back took a back seat to things like figuring out who the shooter was, collecting evidence from the scene, finding out if there was another shooter, etc. |
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John Plassenthal, Photographer
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Vandalia | OH | USA | Posted: 9:48 AM on 04.19.07 |
->> Joe makes a great point that I think is getting lost. Every time a photographer (or anyone for that matter) in the course of his/her job is harrassed or arrested unduly it is another link in a chain that eventually will bind us all. Freedoms are never taken whole, they are eroded piece by piece. To justify the erosion of freedom based on a need for greater "security" is a falacy and as Thomas Jefferson said “He who trades liberty for security deserves neither and will lose both.”
On the drillfield the police acted with due dilligence and I don't have an issue with their actions which from the article were professional and reasonable. The police were directing people to leave the area so the photographer should have moved back to their directed safe zone.
However, he was not arrested, nor booked, nor taken to a police station yet his personal property was confiscated. Given that this was 3 hours later and they had determined that he wasn't a threat there was no valid reason to take his property without due process, nor after 3 hours does a "heat of the moment" argument justify the action. Whether he is upset about it or not, that doesn't mean that it wasn't wrong or that we shouldn't speak up when someone is abused. Whether it's a battered wife who won't prosecute her abuser or a photographer who's just glad to be free. |
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Will Powers, Photographer
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Denver | CO | USA | Posted: 10:17 AM on 04.19.07 |
| ->> I intentionally changed the description I gave so that it was non descriptive of any particular person. Sorry for the mis understanding. |
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Dave Pawlak, Photographer
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Soquel | Ca | USA | Posted: 10:18 AM on 04.19.07 |
->> After having read this post, I would like to know how many of you "whistle blowers" have actually been on a police ride-a-long, spoken with a police officer, or actually have intimate knowledge of how police work.
From having read numerous posts here in SS.com, it seems if police are involved there are automatically certain people coming out of the wood work to say bad things or give their opinion about how it should have been done. It seems to me that people don't really know what they want and if their expectations are not met (whatever those might be) they are quick to complain.
I can assure you that if on even the most basic of levels, the police let a person go who loosely fit the description of a double homicide suspect without out even identifying him there would be some havoc. The fact the person stopped and detained is okay with what happened, how it happened, and that his detention was justified just adds less credibility to this monday morning quarterback thread.
I would like to know what this Thread accomplishes in the grand scheme of Sports Shooter and how this thread is going to benefit you.
I push that we let this go. I also recommend that in the future we wait, be patient, and try to get both sides of the story before making an "educated" statement or conclusion about what happened. |
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Jim Donnelly, Photographer
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Coral Springs | Fl | USA | Posted: 5:04 PM on 04.19.07 |
->> Dave:
I have done ride alongs and was shooting stuff like cops long before "Cops" was ever a TV show. I have plenty of family members who are police and fire officers. I have enough thank you letters from police chiefs and FBI brass to line my office. By all accounts I have ALWAYS been considered a "Pro Police" journalist as opposed to being a "basher" so I feel I can comment on this situation.
You ask how this helps on SS.com. Well, if you have ever been in a situation where the officer in charge has had a bad time with the media and this officer decides its his duty to give you a hard time and make your job more difficult or even impossible because he hates the media, then you are outraged that this journalist had his gear confiscated.
Yes, it was a bad scene. So what. That doesn't give anyone the right to deny someone the right to do his job.
If he had proper credentials they had no right keeping his gear. They denied this journalist a chance to do his job, even earn an income and may have cost him future work by keeping him from telling the story or by being seen in stories getting "detained".
I don't care the student had no issues with it. He doesn't understand the magnitude of what has been done to him. Every journalist should have a problem with the cops who trampled this guys rights by keeping his gear. IMO it is a gross violation of his rights as a journalist and as a US Citizen. I've seen cops arrest a journalist because they told him to stop taking pictures at a crime scene. The guy was outside the the crime scene tape. This cop was on a power trip and gave the guy a hard time and a night in jail because he could. He was later busted in rank because what he did was wrong.
That's what this boils down to... they could detain him and keep his gear, so they did. Once they were told he was a journalist he should have never been detained. They had his information. Just because he doesn't have a problem with it doesn't mean it wasn't wrong.
If it had happened to any one of us while covering the story we could lose our jobs and our livelihood. Equate it to overzealous stadium security that know you are there to do a job yet they bust your you know what's because they can.
Neal nailed it on the head... They didn't care that they abused his rights. As a journalist that should bother you to your core. Cops that knowingly violate people's rights shouldn't be cops. If I can be arrested or held accountable for violating someone's rights, cops should be too - Its their job!
Keeping this guy's gear didn't save anyone's life. Let's be real. It's the kind of police power abuse that gives cops a bad name and gives fuel to the media that like to crucify those power abusers.
If it had happened to you, you'd think differently. |
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Wally Nell, Photographer
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CAIRO | EG | EGYPT | Posted: 6:04 PM on 04.19.07 |
| ->> Jim I could not have said it better. |
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Dave Pawlak, Photographer
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Soquel | Ca | USA | Posted: 6:12 PM on 04.19.07 |
->> Jim,
I'm sorry. I agree that keeping gear is out of line...if that's what they did. Do we know that this guy hasn't gotten his gear back or was he merely without it for a short period of time?
I guess what I'm trying to say is that third party monday morning quarterbacking doesn't necessarily help any of the situations at all. There have been more and more posts such as these popping up lately. These posts, have been fairly against law enfrocement and seem to be uneducated or based upon a previous personal contact with police or contact someone has heard of that may not have gone well.
Am I saying the police don't screw up? Nope, not in the least. Am I saying photographers don't screw up? Nope, not in the least. Does it sound to me like the one victim here, the person detained, may understand this and not want make an issue? Yes.
It sounds to me like this person; an adult, obviously competent, able bodied, able to hold a job, and able to direct his own life can make his own decisions. Maybe we should stop judging him, saying he doesn't understand the severity of what happened to him, or that no matter what the police are in the wrong.
Until you've been in that situation and can say you've stood in their shoes, I think these types of posts should cease.
I am a newer member here and I applied to SS.com based upon what it says in the "About Sportsshooter" section: "SportsShooter.com is an online community and resource for sports photographers and other working photojournalists. It serves as an informative and inspiring site for anyone who aspires to be on the sidelines capturing great moments at their favorite sporting venue."
I still fail to see how this is beneficial to SS members or photojournalists at large.
Respectfully,
Dave |
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Jim Donnelly, Photographer
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Coral Springs | Fl | USA | Posted: 8:35 PM on 04.19.07 |
->> Great post Dave;
On the sidelines of any stadium in the world you will deal with power happy security guards that despise the fact that you get paid more than they do and that you get to to watch the game and they have their backs to it or are stationed down the hall from the field and never get to see a pitch, basket or 1st down. These people (not all by any means - but one bad apple...) can make life miserable on the day that you just happen to be running late, or they may jump in front of you on the big play just to tell you to move back an inch because the color of your credential isn't the right shade of green (because it got wet in the rain and faded.)
SS.com is an incredible site and the knowledge base here is second to none. The SS conventions, Luaus and other events will teach you more in one weekend than you learned in college.
This kind of thread teaches you about real life on the streets from people who have been there as a working photojournalist. Shoot long enough and you will encounter bad apples on BOTH sides.
EX: 25 year old rich boy's dad own a local newspaper. He wants to be a photographer because the press pass gets him close to the action. His daddy is the publisher so the rules don't apply to him. Formula One car crashes while practicing and the driver is trapped inside. He does not know what he is doing and doesn't have the proper equipment to cover the scene properly. He pushes his way past emergency personnel and damn near gets in the car and is in the way of the rescue. (Damn near ran into the rotor blades of the rescue chopper standing by)
The promoter knows the fuel burns invisible and grabs the guy by the shirt and pulls him back. The guy punches the promoter in the face and there is a huge fight. Wanna be photog is tackled by the cops 5 feet from the car (putting them all in danger of catching on fire if there is a fire) and then the guy's dad, the publisher, jumps on the cops who took his kid down - big dog pile while the whole rescue is taking place! I shot the whole deal on video and it was used to help the cops defend their actions when sued by the idiot wanna be and his rich old man. Think those cops like the media anymore?
So you see, it can work both ways. There are rules to being a photojournalist and there are rules for being a cop. There is no reason we can't work together. Threads like this teach everyone what is the right way to do our jobs and the wrong way. That's why I read it. I try to learn something new everyday.
Thanks for your post and sharing your views. Point well taken. BTW... Thanks Wally. |
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Joe Cavaretta, Photographer
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Ft Lauderdale | FL | USA | Posted: 10:24 PM on 04.19.07 |
->> Dave,
My sister is married to a police officer who is currently bedridden after having been hurt in the line of duty- so dont jump to conclusions because I am concerned about this incident. He is the father of two amazingly cool nephews, so I think I "get it," as far as police officers not putting themselves in harm's way unnecessarily.
There must be 1,000 photographer-police interactions every day in this country, and most of them are routine and both sides walk away without any hard feelings.
And yes, this was an extraordinary situation, and that's why I don't even agree with the premise that what the police did in this case was abuse. How about poor judgement?
Maybe its because I'm older and have been doing this a long time, or maybe its because I cut my teeth in smaller markets, but it seems like the guideline used to be "you get treated the way you act." Today, too often, the rule seems to be: "No Photos."
I just cannot see why this kid had to sit handcuffed for hours and have his gear, exposed frames, and ability to work taken away. He was able to joke with the officers, and it sounds like they responded in kind. The kid was not a smart alec, he did not disobey orders.
How about- Ok, Kid, you can take photos but if you move from this spot we will arrest you. That seems more like an appropriate response. If they had time to go confiscate all his stuff, they knew he was unarmed.
Lots of us on this board make our livings covering news at least once a week, sometimes more often. I respect the police and the job they have to do. But, I am doing my job just like they are.
Again, maybe I'm just showing my age here, but I can remember not too long ago when "securing the scene," did not mean "kick out the media." I'm sorry but I don't see a calm discussion amongst professionals as "whistle blowing." You will see that whenever something like this happens, it might end up as fodder for discussion here. That is a good thing.
Actually, I believe it is PRECISELY because the young photographer in this case was not upset by what happened that this should be a subject for us to discuss and think about. Unfortunately, it is not just an erosion of our rights, but more troubling, it is an erosion of the working relationship between photojournalists and police. More and more, the response is, "I don't want to even listen to you." And we need to ask ourselves as photojournalists, How much of that is our own fault?
By the way, welcome to Sports Shooter. |
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Will Powers, Photographer
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Denver | CO | USA | Posted: 10:34 PM on 04.19.07 |
->> Is it possible Dave, that you are out of line? To suggest that none of us or a few of us need to walk in the guy's shoes, indicates that we haven't. I've been harassed by a former city police chief, the Secret Service, the FBI and US Marshals. Mostly for standing up for my rights.
I once asked a cop if he had ever read the Constitution. They swear to defend it. Freedom of the Press is mentioned in there, the right of a cop to be a bully isn't. |
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Dave Pawlak, Photographer
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Soquel | Ca | USA | Posted: 10:38 PM on 04.19.07 |
->> Joe and Jim,
Thank you for your post and I am sorry if I offended you or anyone else here. That most definitely is not my intent.
Joe, your post is great and I couldn't agree with you more. I think you were best able to communicate what I was thinking. |
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Jim Donnelly, Photographer
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Coral Springs | Fl | USA | Posted: 11:05 PM on 04.19.07 |
->> No problem Dave. It takes a lot more than that to offend me. We are all friends here. No one gets more respect from me than cops. Good cops. Good debates never hurt anyone. Welcome to SS and get the most out of your $25!
Jim |
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