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OT: Sleeping bag
Chris Peterson, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Columbia Falls | MT | USA | Posted: 6:27 PM on 02.10.07 |
->> All right, so I just spent last night freezing my butt of in the backcountry of Glacier National Park. I'm using a $600 Bibler tent, that's not the problem. The problem is my sleeping bag isn't anywhere near as warm as it's rated. Anybody out there got a -20 below slepping bag suggestion?
Cheers |
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Erik Schelkun, Photographer
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Troy | OH | USA | Posted: 6:43 PM on 02.10.07 |
->> Chris.
I use a marmot col eq. It is rated at -20 farenheit. I have not had any problems with it, but have not had it quite that cold. I have used it with -2 and was fine with my therma-rest pad. The downside to the bag is it is a tad pricey as most marmot stuff is. but in this case you get what you pay for. also, it is a bit on the heavy side at over 4lbs but i guess that is expected with an extreme cold bag!
good luck! |
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Alan Look, Photographer
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Bloomington | IL | United States | Posted: 7:09 PM on 02.10.07 |
->> Chris, are you using a flannel liner? If not, buy one before ditching the bag. They can really make a difference.
There are also several other items that can make one uncomfortably cold in a bag. Moisture is the biggest killer of warmth. If you've camped much you probably don't need to read the following, but since I don't know your experience, I'll type it.
Always change your clothes before getting in the bag. They have moisture trapped from the earlier part of the day. Sleep in some winter wicking base layer to draw any night time body moisture away.
Wear a stocking cap. Your head is responsible for up to 80% of the heat lost by your body. Wear one even if you have a mummy bag with a hood.
Wear some warm wicking socks. Your feet are responsible for most of the body heat that isn't lost by your head.
Hope some of that helps someone.
BTW - if you do some research on how bags are rated, you'll find it a bit less than scientific.... |
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Don Feria, Photographer, Assistant
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union city | CA | United States | Posted: 7:19 PM on 02.10.07 |
->> North Face Elkhorn, rated at 0 degrees. Found it cheap clearance at a local sports outlet place, you might be able to find it online. works great.
good luck! |
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Ed Platkin, Photographer
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Queensbury | NY | USA | Posted: 9:12 PM on 02.10.07 |
->> The following advice is based on years of winter mountaineering and backcountry SAR in the Adirondacs of NY and the White Mountains in NH. What you didn't mention is how long and how often you're trying to avoid freezing your butt off. ALL clothing should be synthetics(COTTON KILLS!!).
What are you sleeping on? No matter what sleeping bag you use it will get compressed by your body weight. The rest of the bag may be nice and full of loft, but not under you. You need, at least, 2 sleeping pads for insulation underneath you. I have used a closed-cell foam pad as the first layer, topped by a Thermarest pad on top of the foam. I highly disagree with the flannel liner(COTTON KILLS!!). It may be OK in warmer conditions for a little extra insulation, but not at REALLY cold temps. What I DO recommend is a PolarPlus/fleece liner. It wicks moisture away, and dries quickly. Even if moisture turns to frost a couple of sharp snaps will pop off the frost.
If you're really hardcore, the use of what is known as a vapor barrier liner is called for. It prevents all moisture from your body, i.e., sweat AND moisture form exhalation from permeating the insulation in your sleeping bag. Between what is known as insensible perspiration and moisture loss thru respiration, you can easily lose a quart of water overnight.
Most sleeping bags are over-rated as to how cold they can keep you comfortable. It also depends if you're a warm, or cold sleeper. My rule-of-thumb has been to use a bag that is rated for temps. at least 10 deg. colder than I can expect. Plus, if you get hurt or ill you'll need extra insulation.
Use layers of clothing to supplement your sleeping bag. First layer should be polypropylene, or equivalent, underwear. Then, an insulating layer like fleece. Too warm, remove a layer. Too cold, add a layer. I also wear light synthetic gloves, socks, and a balaclava/facemask to cover as much skin as possible. There's nothing like a blast of frigid air hitting your hands or face to clear the sleepy dust from your eyes.
Treat your backcountry diet like feeding a woodstove. Carbos and protein acts like tinder. When you need that long-lasting heat, tend towards fats to keep the fire stoked. Cheese and pepperoni/salami or chocolate as a nightcap to fuel your dream time. Keep a candy bar handy for those midnight munchies to add a little fuel to the fire.
Lastly, and CAREFULLY, if you are melting snow or using a flowing water source to heat up in the AM,use a Nalgene or polycarbonate water bottle like a hot-water bottle, with heated water, to keep you warm and keep the water from freezing. That way you kill 2 birds with 1 stone: the water bottle keeps you warm AND you start off the day with liquid water to heat for breakfast. Use a heavy-duty ZipLoc bag, with the water bottle, as extra insurance against wetting your bed. |
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Alan Look, Photographer
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Bloomington | IL | United States | Posted: 9:52 PM on 02.10.07 |
->> Ed, thanks for the correction. Was thinking fleece, typed flannel.
You are correct. |
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Colin Lenton, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Philadelphia | PA | United States | Posted: 10:07 PM on 02.10.07 |
->> Chris,
I consulted with my father - an avid winter backpacker -- then read Ed's post - they said EXACTLY the same thing..
Pay attention to Ed and you'll stay warm. |
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Chris Peterson, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Columbia Falls | MT | USA | Posted: 10:34 PM on 02.10.07 |
->> Ed, I've done all sorts of camping (I've traversed Glacier, the Bob Marshall Wilderness, etc.) and couldn't agree more with your advice.
I had a pad down, poly underwear, fleece, wool sweater and my friggin coat along with four pairs of wool socks. Didn't use a hot water bottle, but it wasn't that cold, maybe 20s. What I'm looking for is just some advice on a bag.
Andrew and Erik, I'm pretty much headed in your direction.
Andrew, I have Sierra designs with that lid system. Ever used it? I could buy the lid, which makes it a zero degree bag, but I want something that actually works.
If not, I'm shelling out four or five bills...
PS I woke up to howling coyotes, which is always cool. |
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David M. Russell, Photographer
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New York | NY | USA | Posted: 10:43 PM on 02.10.07 |
->> First, get another pad so you're using two. More insulation from the ground is a good thing. When it's cold, I put a Ridge Rest underneath a ThermaRest so air (a great insulator) gets trapped in the ridges between.
Second, don't get a new bag. Just add a liner: flannel or flannel and silk.
Remember to sleep with a hat on. |
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David M. Russell, Photographer
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New York | NY | USA | Posted: 10:46 PM on 02.10.07 |
| ->> Right. Polar fleece, not flannel. |
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Walter Calahan, Photographer
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Westminster | MD | USA | Posted: 10:59 PM on 02.10.07 |
->> Take a look at these guys. Spokane not far from you in Glacier.
http://www.mountaingear.com/pages/product/product.asp/imanf/Marmot/idesc/Co...
But as David said, you need a double pad underneath you for winter camping. I use a full length and a 3/4 length pad for winter camping. Important to keep the sleeping bag off the cold ground or snow.
Just how cold it it? You probably don't need a -20°F unless you're really high in altitude. I find a 0° or 15°F bag just fine. The key is to get a lot of trapped dead air between you and the cold.
Anyway, the folks over in Spokane at Mountain Gear can fix you up quickly 'casue they're close. The can FedEx it to the park and you pick it up. |
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Andrew Villa, Student/Intern, Photo Editor
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Dublin | CA | United States | Posted: 2:27 AM on 02.11.07 |
->> Chris, I've only used the jacket thing once, my friend has it and that was when I was in bishop last year in the spring( temps only got to around 20F) so i was pretty warm.
I usually use synthetic bags, but this one was great.
usually for my fall camping I use an REI bag rated to 15 degrees with a REI fleece liner, that tends to keep me more than warm for most things. |
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Michael Clark, Photographer
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Santa Fe | NM | USA | Posted: 12:14 PM on 02.11.07 |
->> Chris -
As a mountaineer who has routeinely slept in -40 F degree conditions, sometimes without a tent I would say the best sleeping bags currently built anywhere on planet earth are built by a small company called Western Mountaineering.
http://www.westernmountaineering.com/
In my opinion they are the only way to go and they are also very very conservative on their bag ratings. I have a -5 degree WM bag that I have slept in at 20,000 feet and -30 conditions and was decently ok.
I also own a very nice Marmot -30 bag and a Feathered Friends lightweight 20 degree bag. While those two companies are the #2 and #3 bag manufacturers, they still don't compare to Western bags. Seeing as you already have a Bibler tent you know good stuff when you see it. Check out Western Mountaineering sleeping bags - you'll never buy anything else again and they'll last you for the next 20 years.
cheers, Michael
........
http://www.michaelclarkphoto.com |
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Chris Peterson, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Columbia Falls | MT | USA | Posted: 12:52 PM on 02.11.07 |
| ->> Mike, thanks. They sell them locally, too. |
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Caleb Simpson, Photographer, Assistant
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Dallas | TX | USA | Posted: 10:23 AM on 02.12.07 |
->> One more thing I did not see mentioned, is a ground pad. Make sure you have one. It makes a huge difference if you are up off the ground. I use a 3/4 size Ridge Rest to save on weight when carrying a heavy pack. Here are a couple more websites for you to check out fir discounted gear.
http://www.backcountry.com
http://www.steepandcheap.com, they are run by backcountry.com but run ONE special at at time and it is always 50-60% off. I have seen sleeping bags come across the site quite a few times. It might be worth keeping an eye on for deals.
http://www.Moosejaw.com also has good deals on occasion but mostly only sells North Face products. They also have some Marmot and Sierra Designs bags as well. Currently they have a Ridge Rest pad on sale for $17.95, which is a very good deal.
Stay warm,
Caleb |
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Chris Peterson, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Columbia Falls | MT | USA | Posted: 11:38 AM on 02.12.07 |
->> You know, I was shopping for bags and the salesman suggested a hammock, which sounds way cool. No ground at all, no snow and they have a tarp covering. He uses them a lot on kayak trips.
Check 'em out at http://www.hennessyhammock.com/ |
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Ed Platkin, Photographer
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Queensbury | NY | USA | Posted: 3:53 AM on 02.13.07 |
->> Coupla' problems with a hammock. Due the 'wrap-around' effect of the hammock, not only the bottom, but also the sides of your sleeping bag will be compressed. This will greatly reduce the insulating value of your bag.
You will now have cold air circulating both over and under your shelter. Essentially you have created a very large convective heat loss.
Can you imagine trying to add/remove layers of clothing while in a hammock??
If the weather gets really crappy, what are your options for cooking? At least in a proper winter tent you can bring your stove into the tent's vestibule to heat water/cook food.
And, what if there is illness or injury? The gymnastics of a hammock would make life miserable.
And, last but not least, can you imagine trying to use a pee bottle? |
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John Bethune, Photographer
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Charlotte | NC | United States | Posted: 11:55 AM on 02.13.07 |
->> hammock will work in the summer...actualy it's one of the nicest places to sleep in the summer. I honestly dont think it has any place on a winter trip tho.
I'd look at REI too, become a member, get 10% back at end of year...plus their return policy is unbeatable and their house brand gear is rather nice for the $$. |
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Jason Smith, Photographer
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Walter Calahan, Photographer
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Westminster | MD | USA | Posted: 3:11 PM on 02.13.07 |
->> OK, here's my last word on hammocks. If it's correctly designed you can use them year round.
Here's a backpacking hammock maker who get the design correct. He uses the products he makes.
http://www.speerhammocks.com/ |
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Cody Smart, Photographer
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Tarrytown | NY | USA | Posted: 11:31 PM on 02.14.07 |
| ->> marmot.com. much better than north face, etc. go down for a bag that cold, synthetic will be too bulky. |
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Brent Drinkut, Photographer
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Brent Drinkut, Photographer
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Frankfort | IN | USA | Posted: 9:53 AM on 02.15.07 |
| ->> ** that should read "cold weather bags" |
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Chris Peterson, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Columbia Falls | MT | USA | Posted: 2:56 PM on 02.17.07 |
->> I took Mr. Clark's advice, went with the Western Mountaineering bag (A Kodiak rated for zero degrees). Tested it out in a snow bank in West Glacier. Slept all night, with the exception of having to get up to shut the shutter down on a camera that was (I hope) getting some star track photos. Walter's suggestion about two pads is a good idea. That would make the experience more than just comfortable, it would be downright toasty.
Pricey? Sure. But I've found that you can't really put a pricetage on a good night's rest. |
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