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Super Bowl why a pool photographer is needed
Rafael Agustin Delgado, Student/Intern, Assistant
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Pasadena | Ca | USA | Posted: 1:19 AM on 02.05.07 |
->> After watching another game flighting for position for "that" shot,only validates the reason for pool photographer and photo more as this situation continues . Fighting for position around a multi million dollar athlete (employee of the team and the NFL) the liability of one flash unit or camera body or whatever landing on a player like Payton Manning. The NFL does not need that chance for problems for this “prized” shot.
Having more photographers around the coach than players after winning a game like the Super Bowl is rather odd and ironic. Yes we are there to document the events however we are simple given photo access to serve at the discretion of that authorizing party. Photographers, those that have crossed the line of common sense should dictate not act in such manners. It just takes one 70-200 or even a 15mm Fish Eye to end a career. Professionals should not commit such actions, to get a shot.
I like any one like anyone else desires to get the shot, but heck, when the paper is going to run one image only, becoming an additional obstacle to the coaches shaking hands is not worth it. In the end we are simply committing the acts that make for new restrictions, and then cry, why? |
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Louis Lopez, Photographer
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Fontana | CA | USA | Posted: 1:48 AM on 02.05.07 |
->> No Problems reported on the other thread from the big game.
http://www.sportsshooter.com/message_display.html?tid=23629
Seriously though, no paper wants to run the same photo that everyone else has, that is the problem with "pool photos"
It also is why I canceled my subsription to my local paper a few years ago, all they ran were AP photos and AP stories.
I wanted original content not the same stories, and one viewpoint of an event or situation. Why else do you think all those photographers and writers are at an event like the Super Bowl, under your plan then only two credentials need to be issued one writer and one photographer.
pretty narrow view of an event.
I agree that some of those on the field postgame do get foolish, when getting the shot, but those acting out that way are not listening to anyones advice anyhow from cable pullers shoving photographers to shooters trying to get the shot.
By the way anyone else see the photographer on TV with the perfect positioning angle for the coaches postgame embrace that still had his lens cap on? No pushing where he was at, his flash was firing away.
sometimes you just can't win. |
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Andrew Dolph, Photographer
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Medina | OH | USA | Posted: 2:05 AM on 02.05.07 |
->> Louis,
I'll reserve commentary on the scrum situation for others out there with far more experience under their belts, especially since the extent of my football coverage has been Browns games — where the post game jubilations and scrums ... wait. Oh, it's the Browns. Never mind.
Anyhow ... I did notice a shooter get right up in the "Dungy-dunk" with a wide angle shot. I was hoping to see it on the wires, and sure enough, it's image 143 of 626 on the Yahoo! News feed of Super Bowl coverage — credit to AP/David J. Phillip. Now, that reaction is absolutely priceless! Would love to see the entire sequence.
Cheers.
- Andrew |
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Michael R. Sisak, Student/Intern, Photographer
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New York | NY | USA | Posted: 2:15 AM on 02.05.07 |
| ->> Why not just have one pool photographer to cover the whole event? Yeah, that might be the argument against it. |
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Robert Hanashiro, Photographer
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Los Angeles | CA | | Posted: 2:28 AM on 02.05.07 |
->> Unless you're here in Miami (I am having a late night dinner of Jamacian take out with my colleagues Bob and Jack as I write this)...or been at a SB before ... you might want to reserve your pontificating.
You're all entitled to an opinion...but please don't misrepresent the situation or the facts.
The scrum situation has been debated a lot...and I'm certainly guilty of doing that many times in Sports Shooter.
Run a search on the Sports Shooter Newsletter archives on the topic for an overview of this situation and the the pros & cons of "the scrum".
Yes it is dangerous...and due to many circumstances and past "history" the scrum lives on. |
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Robert Hanashiro, Photographer
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Los Angeles | CA | | Posted: 3:08 AM on 02.05.07 |
->> For an example of a good photograph that can sometimes be made from post-game celebrations at big events, check out my colleague Bob Deutsch's photograph of Colts' head coach Tony Dungy being carried off the field by his players, with fireworks going off and the jumbotron in the background (#1).
And check the photograph ---Bob said it's a "Hail Mary" --- of Dungy and Bears head coach Lovie Smith (#36)
Bob will tell you that a lot of luck plays into getting good photographs like his two from last night's (it's early Monday morning as I write this!) Super Bowl game. But I must add that a lot of experience, work, planning, instincts and patience also goes into getting into the right position to even get a chance to make a frame like this ... let alone two!
And lastly, a great example of what you might find away from "the scrum" is Jack Gruber's very story-telling frame of a dejected Devin Hester (the Bear's rookie who ran back the opening kick off for a TD) --- frame #37.
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/flash.htm?gdrop1=Super%20Bowl%20XLI |
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Jim Colburn, Photographer
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Omaha | NE | USA | Posted: 6:45 AM on 02.05.07 |
->> "only validates the reason for pool photographer"
The NFL will love your suggestion. Of course it will put a few photographers out of work but why should you care? |
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Kevin Johnston, Photographer
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Oden | MI | USA | Posted: 8:31 AM on 02.05.07 |
| ->> Great link Robert. Thanks |
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Leo Salinas, Photographer
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Washington | DC | USA | Posted: 9:13 AM on 02.05.07 |
->> To Jim Colburn,
I was the one that marked your post inappropriate and here is why.
Rafael Delgado has a point with the photographers covering the event swarming the athletes in the scrum. If we as photographers want respect, then we should at least look and act like professionals. I see absolutely no difference in what that mess looks like, and total disregard for each other. It is the equivalent to paparazzi falling over each other and getting in each other’s photo to get that shot of (insert famous celebrity name here.)
Yes, that’s right, I said paparazzi.
Now, if this word offends you because you were there at the event, in that scrum, then think about this.
The general public does not distinguish from a sports shooter or a photographer shooting a news event. They see an individual with a high-priced camera. Now, when they’re at home watching the Super Bowl on their TV and they see individuals with that same high-priced camera acting a fool, they start putting things together. The next time their out and they see a photographer taking pictures of a car wreck, they add what they saw at the Super Bowl and what they see in front of them and think – scavenger.
“Is anybody going to lose their jobs by having a pool photographer shoot this handshake?”
What publication sends a photographer all the way to the Super Bowl just to get a handshaking photo? Who’s going to be put out of work? Delgado raises a question, and all of a sudden people are unemployed?
This is just one photo. If your whole take from the event was not any good and the “Oh Sh—factor has kicked in which ultimately makes you act foolish on TV at one of the biggest events broadcast around the world (breath) maybe you should be unemployed. |
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Jerome Davis, Photographer
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Rochester | NY | USA | Posted: 10:00 AM on 02.05.07 |
| ->> I don't think the general public cares 2 cents about photographers running onto the field. I've watch many of Superbowls and other championship games and haven't heard anyone mention anything about photographers. The general public cares about the adds, the refs, whether the game was boring. The genral public is excited about their betting squares,how much money they won, winning team, or dissappointed about their team losing, rather than a bunch of photographers running onto the field. |
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Delane B. Rouse, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Washington | DC | US | Posted: 10:12 AM on 02.05.07 |
->> I think Jerome is right...my girlfriend wasn't checking the Yahoo picture feed last night (I was), wasn't checking Nikon vs Canon, or worried about work for hire shooter trashing their gear. She was concerned about the Colts needing TWO safties for her to win her pool (riiiiiight...TWO).
-dbr |
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John H. Reid III, Photographer
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Gates Mills | OH | USA | Posted: 10:59 AM on 02.05.07 |
->> I think that Robert Hanashiro makes the best point here :
"Unless you're here in Miami (I am having a late night dinner of Jamacian take out with my colleagues Bob and Jack as I write this)...or been at a SB before ... you might want to reserve your pontificating."
Unless you have been physically present at the event in question, whether the current event or a past one (someone who has been at a past event can comment on how what they saw on TV differed from their experience,) it's probably best not to pass judgement on what you have seen on TV. The reality of an event can be far different from the televised version (Anyone who has been at a below freezing game knows how painfully obvious the TV timeouts become, for instance.) There are often many issues that are only apparent if you are actually present at an event.
There's an old adage that I think is appropriate here "Don't judge a man (woman) until you've walked a mile in his (her) shoes." |
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Eric Thayer, Photographer
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New York | NY | USA | Posted: 11:04 AM on 02.05.07 |
->> Paparazzi? Are you joking?
Yeah, that's right, trying to get images of postgame celebrations is EVERYTHING like hiding the the bushes waiting for Britney Spears boob to hang out while she almost drops her child. |
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Jeff Stanton, Photographer
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Tucson | Az | USA | Posted: 11:33 AM on 02.05.07 |
->> Jim Colburn's comments are completely appropriate. We don't need to feed a pool photographer idea to the NFL. It's already bad enough gaining access and getting worse by the day. Instead, we as a group need to and should police our own so leagues like the NFL don't have to.
I'm one of these people who have stopped going for the handshake photos. I don't give a didly-doo. When I cover an event, I get the best images I can without getting into trouble, because I can't work with my credentials in some officials back pocket. I learned my lesson on that. |
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Ben Jenkins, Photographer
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Geneva | IL | USA | Posted: 11:40 AM on 02.05.07 |
| ->> I thought it was funny seeing at least 2 point and shoot digital cameras in the scrum immediately following the clock running out... Couldn't see who they belonged to since I all saw was on arm and a ultra compact point and shoot next to a bunch of 1D's. (I actually think they might have been the security guards) There were random non-news types pushing their way into the scrum--right after the game--to get a photo. That seems like the only ridiculous thing to me. |
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William Jurasz, Photographer, Assistant
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Cedar Park | TX | USA | Posted: 12:05 PM on 02.05.07 |
| ->> I disagree with Jim's comments. If the ONLY reason to not have a pool photographer is because it puts someone out of a job, then all that is is blatant job protection for a job's sake. There must be a better reason to "protect" a job rather than "it will put someone out of work". Nobody is owed a job. |
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Matthias Krause, Photographer
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Brooklyn | NY | USA | Posted: 12:30 PM on 02.05.07 |
->> William,
how about freedom of the press vs. another sports league only showing the public what it wants to be seen for a reason? |
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Jeff Stanton, Photographer
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Tucson | Az | USA | Posted: 1:28 PM on 02.05.07 |
| ->> If a pool situation is created, there will be more than just a few photographers put out of work. Plus, the available images for various media including newspapers and online would dwindle considerably. Guys, do us all a favor: don't make a suggestion like this, not even as a passing thought or a joke. |
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Bryan Oller, Photographer
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Colorado Springs | CO | USA | Posted: 1:44 PM on 02.05.07 |
->> I hate the scrum but I'll take the scrum. Every newspaper or publication has a different need that a pool photographer cannot always offer.
As obnoxious as it is I've seen plenty of players and coaches relish the attention received from the scrum. It can be embarassing to watch but it is entertaining from time to time. And you get a good chance to see your friends and co-workers on national TV.
Again, I hate the scrum but I'll take the scrum. |
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Dave Yoder, Photographer
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Milan | IT | Italy | Posted: 2:19 PM on 02.05.07 |
->> Having some first-hand experience dealing with (but not actually working with, if you'll forgive a vague distinction), it is absolutely consistent with the behavious of the real paparazzi, at least the ones here in the birthplace of the term--Italy (more specifically from the Fellini movie La Dolce Vita).
And--as a former rugby player, I take offence at the comparison to a scrum. In rugby, there are rules, and a referee to stop the action and pull the sides apart if the scrum collapses or someone's neck snaps. And, above all, a scrum is the manifestation of a bunch of guys pulling together for a common goal--teamwork--not the rampant individualism of a post-game feeding frenzy. So, you may not have thought so, but you're disparaging rugby and making overly complimentary comparisons to the photographers involved in such spectacles.
Written mostly in jet. Mostly. |
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Dave Yoder, Photographer
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Milan | IT | Italy | Posted: 2:22 PM on 02.05.07 |
| ->> awful typos. written mostly in JEST I meant. Also the first paragraph is about having worked amongst the papparazzi (in my case on real news events, not celebrity BS). |
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William Jurasz, Photographer, Assistant
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Cedar Park | TX | USA | Posted: 2:32 PM on 02.05.07 |
| ->> Matthias, that is a good reason. |
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David Harpe, Photographer
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Louisville | KY | USA | Posted: 5:50 PM on 02.05.07 |
| ->> I always thought the term "Monday Morning Quarterbacking" meant second-guessing the GAME, not the people covering it... |
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John Lee, Photographer
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San Francisco | CA | USA | Posted: 9:01 PM on 02.05.07 |
->> you know, we should all kinda give rafael a break.
yeah, the clusterf**k of photogs looking for end of game jubes -- be it high school state championships, ncaa basketball tourneys, superbowl coachshakes, or even the political and news varieties -- are kinda necessary, because of the examples that bert hanashiro pointed us to. there are always some really amazing photos that can be had from that. and when i look thru pix i've shot over the years, i've got quite a few scrummy ones, some i even kinda like.
but at the same time, any photog willing to step back a bit and see things in the wider, non photo world perspective will realize that the photo scrum of every variety is kinda ridiculous. think monica lewinsky, the john elway superbowl of a few years back, even that ridiculous breach of photog self-policing that happened during the ncaa tournament regionals in oakland last march. see this. http://www.sportsshooter.com/news/1553
i agree with bryan oller that i hate the scrum, and unfortunately it's still a necessary evil. but until we figure out a way to not be so ridiculous about it, it will end up hurting us. that short term gain for that one photograph may not be worth the long term negative effects. i have to believe that a few high-level people at the nfl and big-spending tv networks have given the bill belichick scrum incident a few extra seconds of thought. and you know what the easiest thing for them to do is? to just cut the lowly still photog out of it entirely. they'll find a way.
so what can be done? maybe limit the scrum to one photog per news outlet. problem is, there are lots of news outlets. in the case of superbowl XLI, you've got AP, getty, reuters, epa, etc... then si, espn the mag... then you've got the indy star, chicago tribune and sun times, miami herald, ft lauderdale sun sentinel, palm beach post... who am i missing? so if it was limited to one media outlet photog, there still would be at least a dozen shooters. can you limit it to only wires? no, because then chicago and indy papers will complain. so then if you were to then include those papers, then you can sure bet that the miamis and ft lauderdales and co will complain too.
so maybe we're all screwed. maybe just get as much of the scrum as you can before the powers that be bring the axe down on it. then we can all one day harken back to the good ole days when we were able to stick a wide in coaches' faces. and you know what? betcha by the time it gets to reminiscing about scrums past, we'll also be talking about the times when we were able to shoot still images at major sporting events. eventually it will be all hd video all the time.
and regarding the whole "putting photogs out of work" statement... c'mon! if your entire photographic career is based on the scrum, and that you have absolutely no other offering to the photographic world, then maybe it is time to think about another career. |
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Matt Miller, Photographer
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Omaha | NE | USA | Posted: 12:13 AM on 02.06.07 |
->> all of the photos mentioned have been nice shots. we (yeah, here in omaha) ran some dungy wide-angle shot four columns vertical... it was wide angle, post game. i have been in those messes, although not super bowl-caliber messes. i have a hard time believing that if even 25 photogs were given post-game field access, they could not get the necessary pics, maybe even more, than what we saw sunday.
but of the dozens of photos i have seen, my favorite pic has been strazzante's overhead of the bears player on his knee.
now, i have never shot a super bowl. my interests are feature situations. and granted, my best photos have been made of people that rarely see a photog. so, as robert said, maybe it would be wise to hold my tongue. but is just seems like much to-do about so few photos.
my favorite part of the game was prince. he destroyed the half-time show. |
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Tom Morris, Photographer
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West Monroe | LA | USA | Posted: 1:32 AM on 02.06.07 |
->> I wouldn't mind being in the middle of the scrum. That means I'd be covering a Super Bowl.
One of the best tidbits my late dad told me in my growing up years was to never envy anyone, therefore, IMHO, I believe many of the comments on this thread are of an evious nature.
One thing, however, if I ever am assigned to shoot an event of a SB's magnitude I promise not to be chimping on national TV amidst of the post-game festivities. As my wife said, while watching . . . "Why isn't that guy shooting? "He's chimping." "What's that?" "Admiring your work when you should be going after more shots to admire." |
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D. Ross Cameron, Photographer
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Oakland | CA | USA | Posted: 1:54 AM on 02.06.07 |
->> There's an interesting dichotomy going on in this thread. (I'll wait while you look up the word "dichotomy").
On the one hand, we have photogs complaining about the proliferation of shooters, -- professional or not -- forming these cluster f***s around subjects of interest as though this were some recent development on the photojournalistic landscape.
It's not: I've been doing this job for 22 years now, and I remember jostling for position practically my first day on the job, and that was back in New York City, where -- trust me -- they know how to jostle.
On the other hand, we have every Tom, Dick and Harry complaining about the death of the PJ industry, and the disappearance of photog jobs.
Therefore: how can these "scrums" possibly be getting worse if there are fewer and fewer of us out there to cluster?
I'm just curious. I'll take my answer off the air.
XO
DRC |
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Jack Gruber, Photographer
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San Francisco | CA | USA | Posted: 10:55 PM on 02.06.07 |
->> Chimping ain't all that bad.
It is a tool. It is there and I use it like there is no tomorrow. Mostly to add sound files. Is this a bad thing. Heck no. In pouring rain, weird light and other crazy situations, a quick chimp can give you an instant heads up to some wild exposure problem or other issue.
I won't name names but that photographer I think you saw chimping on TV (my wife saw it too and told me about it) also made one of the best photos of the post game events. Can't not talk about great post game photos without mentioning one of the best photos I have seen in a long time shot by Bob Deutsch of Tony Dungy being carried off the field. Simply great. Years of experience and know how.
Two guys, one scrum and two completely different photos of the same events along with many other great pictures by others out there. The scrum isn't perfect but this Super Bowl didn't seem that bad at all.
Bert is right. Being there does lend some perspective that isn't as obvious from TV or speculation. Thiking a strobe or a camera is going to cause these guys serious injury is a bit of a stretch.
jg |
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Bob Markey, Photographer
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Royal Palm Beach | FL | US | Posted: 1:02 AM on 02.07.07 |
| ->> Did anyone notice that orange cardboard DISPOSABLE camera in the mass of 1Ds?! I laughed outloud. |
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George Bridges, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Washington | DC | USA | Posted: 9:00 AM on 02.07.07 |
->> First to address Rafael's original post: You don't want to go to a pool situation because you lose control of the final image. Yes it would create less havoc, yes it would be somewhat safer, but to give up control of the product leads down a path we don't want to follow. Unfortunatley that path is already happening and over several years expect access to get worse for news organizations.
Organizations send their photographers because they like the way they shoot. If USA Today didn't like how Bert, Jack and Bob shoot football then they would have sent other photographers. If they didn't care at all they could have just taken images from AP, Reuters, AFP and Getty (USA Today is a subscriber to all I'm sure). But they want what their guys produce, they like their style and know that they WILL produce. If you go with a pool photographer what happens when he/she misses the moment? equipment breaks? underexposes? Everyone loses out. Why does the AP keep sending David Phillip to the game? Because he has proven year after year he can get in position for that celebratory Gatorade dousing mentioned by Andrew and he, like many of their other Bowl regulars, comes back with the telling images year after year.
The Super Bowl scrum is not a pretty thing. I've been in demonstrations approaching riot status with police on motorcycles holding back demonstrators pushing a chain link fence and been shoved through bushes by a policeman with a billy club (all while working with a camera in my hand, I'm not that rebellious) and I have to say the post-game scrum I was in after the Houston Super Bowl was pretty darn tough. But I'll take it. It's a challenge but you can make memorable shots.
But, you have to take it. There is one way it can be alleviated -- everyone stay back and let the players have their moment while shooting it long. Except the TV networks (even though they have 50 or more cameras on the game) won't allow it, they want the in-your-face jubilation. And since they want that the stills have no choice but to get close as well. You can't shoot Peyton Manning celebrating by staying on the sidelines with a 400mm when he is surrounded by 4 TV cameramen and their accompanying remote transmitter crews.
Sure we can all just sit back and let it be a pool situation, but then the NFL may say "We are not a news event but an entertainment company so we'll provide any images you want." It happens at rock concerts, the want to control the image as much as possible. Ask to shoot WWE wrestling when it comes to your town -- you'll be told "no way, we'll be glad to provide you with some images." Because they are an entertainment business and can do that. |
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Kirk Mastin, Photographer
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Coeur D'Alene | ID | USA | Posted: 3:27 AM on 02.08.07 |
->> I'm for freedom of the press up to a point. It's fine to cover the scrum, but I almost fell on the floor when I saw that there were basically ONLY photographers/TV crew around the Coach, Payton Manning etc. at the end of the Superbowl.
It reminds me of when I saw a wide pull back shot from a Cindy Sheehan moment in the cemetary....the photos published would have you believe she was having a private moment. In reality she was surrounded by at least 30 photojournalists.
At the Superbowl, it must have been a 40:1 ratio of photographers to athletes. I enjoyed seeing the scrum just for the sheer absurdity of it.
Granted I have seen many AWESOME jube photos...but one day the number of photo/tv people will be so great that the rules may have to change.
Kirk |
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Andrew Bright, Photographer
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Auckland | New Zealand | New Zealand | Posted: 8:46 PM on 02.08.07 |
->> I've never been to a SuperBowl, or even watched the game, or any game on TV. I'm definitely not in Miami with Robert, Bob, and Jack eating Jamaican take-out, but would be happy to oblige if invited :)
So I've got close to no idea what goes on at a SuperBowl, except to see glimpses through the links to pics that are thrown up here. The Superbowl is something that happens half a world away for me, and if you think that means I shouldn't comment because of my distance from the subject, I respect that and invite you keep scrolling down, but would also like to venture that distance from a subject can be a useful thing to have.
And you know what? The scrum pics I've seen every now and then that some of you seem so desperate to protect....they 'aint that great. I'm not meaning to casue offence, but even the #1 and #36 frames Robert refers to as good, well they don't exactly knock my socks off. The two coaches meeting don't seem to be displaying any kind of emotion that I can identify, it just seems to be a matter of "get the scrum shot" and "get the two coaches together", and I can understand that those are probably must haves for your publications these days.
But surely our job as creative professionals involves finding new ways to get "the shot", and as an outsider, I'd welcome some alternatives to the scrum grab shots that keep appearing. Basketball pics used to be from the sidelines, now I see some of you up in the roof, remotes behind the backboard, even strobing the court (unheard of here, as far as I can tell) to get a variation on the action.
Can't you shoot the scrum from the sidelines, from up in the stands, somewhere else? It'd provide the editors, publications and of course, the readers with something new (and difference seeming to be a currency our profession trades in, is a GOOD thing), and each person that decides to remove themselves from the scrum can only be a good thing too, right? (As long as there is a net loss, and not a whole heap of others rushing in to fill your spot when you leave). I guess that if nothing else, it puts you at the cutting edge of shooting a game. Perfect the technique fo shooting from outside the scrum, and you put yourself that much further ahead of everyone else when it becomes an accepted way of doing things, and everyone else is still "Shoot from up there? How on earth do I make that work?" You're welcome to discount my ideas if you like, but you might like to judge from your own experience how much longer you expect the scrum shot to stay in fashion? Wouldn't it make sense to be exploring alternatives sometime soon?
Kinda seems a bit like caring for the environment (and I guess that's exactly the right description upon reflection). Like driving a hybrid, being the first to care for your post-game centre-field environment by withdrawing is uncomfortable and bound to draw flack from certain areas, but wouldn't it be a more mature thing to do? I've seen the work of lots of you in your portfolios; you produce some beautiful, meaningful images in difficult condtions during these games. Surely you could do this with the scrum; shoot it without being part of it?
My two, Antipodean, currency converted cents. |
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