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What is the deal about selling NCAA photos?
Darrell Walker, Photographer
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Smyrna (Atlanta) | GA | USA | Posted: 9:03 AM on 01.25.07 |
->> I know this subject has been discussed before. I just want some clarification on this issue. I went on Georgia's website http://www.georgiadogs.com/PhotoStore.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=8800
and see that they are selling photos. Anybody can purchase the photos. Has the NCAA left this issue up to the schools or is it open season to sell photos? |
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Brian Westerholt, Photographer
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Kannapolis | NC | USA | Posted: 11:06 AM on 01.25.07 |
| ->> Darrell - as you have mentioned this subject has been discussed several time in the past few months on SS.com. It is my understanding that the latest by-law the NCAA passed says that third parties can not sell photos, even if they have permission from the school. The school themselves can sell photos, which is what it looks like Georgia is doing. I believe that newspapers are still allowed to sell photos as well. |
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Michael Silverwood, Photographer
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Exeter | NH | USA | Posted: 11:33 AM on 01.25.07 |
->> Darrel, The "final" word is what basically amounts to don't ask, don't tell. I communicated with the compliance officer at the University I do work for, and she discussed it directly with the person at the NCAA who translated the current situation. The text of that e-mail, which I was encouraged to spread to other photographers is as follows:
"I’ve been in a lot of committee meetings, so I apologize for just getting back to you. I understand your concerns with the way the legislation is written.
It is not permissible under NCAA rules for a photographer to sell photos of a student-athlete. However, because legally the photos are the property of the photographer, legally they can sell them. Since the student-athlete does not need to send a cease and desist letter in this case, there is nothing the institution or student-athlete needs to do. I think what you need to keep in mind is that neither the student-athlete nor the institution should be granting photographers permission to sell the photos. That is when there would be a violation and reinstatement would need to be requested.
If the photographer asks if he/she can sell the photos, you (or the student-athlete) would need to reply it is impermissible per NCAA rules. They should know that it is still within their legal rights to sell the photos for private use since the photos are their property."
Confusing enough? So the bottom line is it is up to the individual institution on how to proceed. The larger Universities probably have money to hire full time photographers and make photos available to the public, like I have seen with Texas and your example of UGA. I am sure there are many more. The key for these Universities, and I would be interested in the feedback from those familiar with each school as to if they are selling photos on-line or on campus, are they of CURRENT student-athletes, with eligibility remaining, or are they athletes who have left school, graduated, etc. The smaller universities probably don't have the budget for what a UTexas or UGA do, so they cooperate with freelancers, and private individuals to get what they need for Media Guides, Programs, web sites, Marketing, etc, and leave the issue at that.
The key, in my humble opinion, is to have an open, trusting, and mutually beneficial relationship with the University and the Athletic Departments you are working with. You have to be sensitive to their image and best interests, and be able to overcome any issues that may make the school not shine in a positive light. Most cannot afford to staff a full-time photographer(s) with all the requisite employment benefits, the cost of the equipment, etc. If they can get what they want, protect their students, their image, and save money, I would trust that they would be supportive of what you are doing. Plus, it saves them time and hassle, having to respond to multitudes of requests from parents, etc for a photo of little Johnny QB in his game uniform...
I've been trying to keep my mouth shut on this issue for a while now and just go on with life, but I hope this can put an end to all the questions. And hopefully the NCAA will take another look at the issue, see the madness in it and come up with a more supportive policy giving the Universities power over the issue to deal with it as they see fit, without having to hide in the closet.
There, I've said my peace...now I await all the "Inappropriate" votes, and supeoneas, etc... |
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Jeff Brehm, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Lancaster | OH | USA | Posted: 11:48 AM on 01.25.07 |
| ->> Michael, I would never say you were unappropriate. And I don't have the power to even subpoena the squirrels to stay out of my yard. But I can say thanks for sharing what you know. I thought it was an excellent post. |
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Brian Westerholt, Photographer
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Kannapolis | NC | USA | Posted: 4:48 PM on 01.25.07 |
->> Michael,
Thanks for your post - as usual, it seems that it is still "as clear as mud." I am with you in the hopes that the NCAA will go back and take another look at this by-law and not only make changes, but come up with wording that is not interpreted in some many different ways. |
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Jason Johns, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Biddeford | ME | USA | Posted: 11:46 AM on 01.26.07 |
->> I shoot for the University of Southern Maine, a DIII college, and know many of the athletes & parents by name. Many times I've had them ask me if they can buy photos from me of the games & such, and I've always had to decline.
There is one basketball player that is graduating in May, and she has asked me to sell her some photos. As I understand it, its against the bylaws to sell to a student-athlete, but what happens if he/she graduates & is not covered by the NCAA? Also, does that same situation still exist if an athlete is no longer playing competitive sports at the college, but is enrolled as a student? |
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Clark Brooks, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Urbana | IL | USA | Posted: 12:12 PM on 01.26.07 |
->> Jason"
It is okay to sell prints to NCAA athletes or their parents as long as you charge them the same price you would charge anyone else. Once the student-athlete has graduated they are not longer under NCAA or the schools influence and you may also allow them to purchase image for personal use. Making the image available to general public may be another issue because of the team's trademarks. That in mind, the rules the school you cover may have more or less restrictions in place.
What every photographer needs to know is that every school and sometimes league has a different set of operating standards. With a little leg work you can find out what those restrictions are.
The key is to have an open discussion with the school's AD, their media office or compliance officer to get the scoop for that institution as the regents/board of directors or athletic director can apply tougher standards or none at all as long as it does not affect the school's good standing or an athletes eligibility as in this case. |
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Carl Auer, Photographer
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Eagle River | AK | USA | Posted: 1:00 PM on 01.26.07 |
->> I recently had a parent of one of the kids that plays for the DII school here ask me about buying photos for their son's scrapbook. I contacted the schools SID and he emailed me right back and said as long as it is for personal use and not commercial use, no problem. However, Max Waugh here at SS use to (and maybe still does) run into issues with the University of Washington where they told him on what I am sure seemed like an hourly basis that he could not use any photo of the student athletes in any way other than news/media, period.
It really varies from school to school and division to division. My understanding from what I have read here on SS, on NPPA, and talks with my SID and SID's from both DI and DII schools, the NCAA has rules about it and it is up to the schools, compliance officers, SID's, AD's and so on to interpret it to the best of their ability. Some schools will look at it one way, while others will look at it another way. I have even seen one school with a SID that said no way, quit their job and the new SID said no problem. Best thing to do is as Michael and Clark stated and open up discussions with the Sports Information Department and Athletic Director to find out if it is ok with them. They may not have a problem, but your credentials may have a notation in them saying that you can not sell them other than for the use that you obtained the credentials for. |
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Max Waugh, Photographer
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Bothell | WA | USA | Posted: 1:53 PM on 01.26.07 |
->> Without rehashing too much of this, I will also point out that you'll even get varying views on this point:
"legally the photos are the property of the photographer"
I've dealt with a couple SIDs now, and the opinions on selling images, paying for work, photographer's rights (vs. university rights), image usage, commercial vs. non-commercial practices, SportShooter, etc. vary from person to person... and not just between different SID's, but on down to the different sport-specific media relations folks in the same department.
It can be a cycle of frustration and contradictions, but that doesn't change the fact that communicating with these folks is the best (safest) way to go, whether you're working for an outside media outlet or for the university itself.
Max |
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Mike Carlson, Photographer
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Bayonet Point | FL | USA | Posted: 2:30 PM on 01.26.07 |
->> Just to throw another voice out there - I'm the SI Dept. photographer for a DII school here and, as has been mentioned, the SID's interpretation is that he's fine with me selling the images as long as it is the same price to everyone to avoid any issue for the athletes. He's even gone so far as to have the AD email each athlete explaining this and pointing out that I own the copyright to all work after some requested copies/CD's/downloads...it actually works to my advantage in that I HAVE to charge everyone so no one can even ask for the 'favor'.
A bit OT, but this has all be set up using PhotoShelter. I can offer the sales of images that are put up in galleries that the SI Dept. can search and download whenever they need..saves me having to burn multiple CD's, answer requests from the different teams/departments, etc.
The EZPrints/PayPal sales setup through PhotoShelter also means little-to-no extra work once I've put a gallery together. The university also has the PhotoShelter search bar (same as on SportsShooter) on its website to allow searching by player (I use PhotoMechanic code replacement to quickly keyword each image with the players name/number).
And all of that for a low monthly cost.
Feel free to email me for more details or visit my PS site for a look:
http://www.photoshelter.com/user/mcarlson |
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Bob Markey, Photographer
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Royal Palm Beach | FL | US | Posted: 7:50 AM on 01.27.07 |
->> I've been told by an NCAA compliance officer for one school that as long as the school has control over the content of my photo sales Web site, I may sell the images.
Here is what the compliance officer wrote:
"The NCAA will allow a member Institution to hire a third party to sell a picture provided the institution has control over the web page to include: price, determination of pictures sold, advertisements, etc…Additionally, only (name of school removed) items may be sold on the web page."
The officer sent me the information below:
Sale and Distribution of Commercial Items Bearing Names or Pictures of Enrolled Student-Athletes (I)
Date Issued: May 18, 2005
Type: Official
Item Ref: 2
Interpretation:
The committee determined that an institution may sell and distribute commercial items bearing names or pictures of enrolled student-athletes through third-party Web sites (e.g., the institution pays a fee for the use of the third-party services), provided the institution retains control over the content of the particular Web pages used to sell and distribute the items (e.g., determination of items to be sold, prices, advertisements) and only institutional items are sold on such pages. [References: NCAA Bylaws 12.5.1.1 (institutional, charitable, educational or nonprofit promotions) and 12.5.1.8 (promotion by third party of highlight film or media guide); 11/29/90 official interpretation, Item No. 4 and 9/5/91 official interpretation, Item No. 3] |
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Stew Milne, Photographer
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Providence | RI | USA | Posted: 5:11 PM on 02.15.07 |
->> Micheal, et al,
I just had this conversation with the University I shoot. In their email response was this:
Basically, the rules do not permit an individual or agency (e.g., private
photographer, news agency) to sell photographs of student-athletes with
remaining eligibility for private use. However, the NCAA does not ask athetic
departments to send a cease and desist letter, though, since legal precedent
allows individuals the right to sell photographs for private use. So, he can
continue to sell them if he wants, despite the rules. As does David Silverman,
and many other photographers.
Which just re-iterates the post you had. Our right as photographers supercedes the NCAA ruling (which is not a right).
I have another question though. What about a poster. I made a poster of a team. Can I sell that. The university did not hire me to do it and i didn't take any money from them.
thx,
-sM |
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Clark Brooks, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Urbana | IL | USA | Posted: 6:47 PM on 02.15.07 |
->> "I made a poster of a team. Can I sell that."
If you are talking about offering the product to the general public, sure, but only after you obtain model releases from each individual in the photos, a release or license from the university if the players have their logo or team name on in the photos (as well as from companies like Pepsico, Nike, or Coke that might have logos in the image), and possibly a property release. Use of photos for posters would be considered commercial use and not editorial and therefore need the proper releases signed prior to offering them for purchase.
Now I'm not an attorney and there are several on this board who might chime in but if an individual player contacted you for a single poster sized print of himself then I would think since the final product is for his/her personal use only, just like photos that "could be" offered to the general public, then then the sale of that image as an oversized print would be permissible. |
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Stew Milne, Photographer
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Providence | RI | USA | Posted: 7:45 PM on 02.15.07 |
->> Clark,
In one of the earlier posts on this thread there was a mention
about getting, or not getting model releases from the athletes. If you don't need a model release to sell photos of the athletes in action, why would you need one in a posed situation, whether in studio or on the football field?
-sM |
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Clark Brooks, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Urbana | IL | USA | Posted: 9:11 PM on 02.15.07 |
->> Stu,
Where the photo is taken doesn't matter. How it used is the important issue. You can not use someone's likeness without their permission in a commercial application.
If this is something you are seriously considering I would have a 1/2 hour chat with an IP attorney licensed to practice law in your state. The laws do vary from state to state. Luckily you don't live in California. That state has the most extensive statutes in the country (with good reason) on appropriation of commercial likeness.
Your attorney will be able to clearly identify what situations (commercial vs editorial) you would and wouldn't need model releases as well as any additional releases you would need.
The team name and logo for the school, if we are talking NCAA member institutions, are likely trademarked and like licensing a photo for use, you must pay for the right to use the team name and logo for an image used commercially (ie: calendar, note cards, posters). Contact the school's compliance office and tell them what you want to do. They will tell what they require of you (financially) as well as the risks you face should you use the image in your intented manner without a proper trademark license.
If you are just licensing photos for personal use and not creating a secondary product from the image then the above situation is likely not applicable. |
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Jean Finley, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Iowa City | IA | USA | Posted: 12:41 AM on 02.16.07 |
| ->> Stew - I'd tread lightly. They might not be able to "stop" a private sale, but they sure can "stop" you from getting a credential. |
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Stew Milne, Photographer
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Providence | RI | USA | Posted: 3:46 PM on 02.16.07 |
->> Jean, That is true. I have a very close relationship with the SID people, and don't plan to screw anything up. I was just wondering about the poster. But from what I've read on SS and other sites, a poster (w/ team name) would be out of the question for me to sell. It's okay for the university to give them away, which is what they are doing to promote the team. So, it's okay for the school to profit from this, but not me.
Frome the email i got from the cmpliance person, they don't have an issue with me selling individual prints for private use. which is exactly what i'm doing. i don't plan to use them commercially. i can still use them in an editorial publications though, right?
-sM |
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Darren Whitley, Photographer
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Maryville | MO | USA | Posted: 12:33 AM on 02.17.07 |
->> Compliance officers are the persons you all need to check with. SIDs do not have the training or ultimate responsibility for issues of elgibility or legality. Only the compliance officer is fully accountable for interpretations. This is the only opinion worth getting as it should prove to be the final word for the institution you are dealing with. Even the athletic director should defer to the compliance officer. In terms of athletic administration, if you get an incorrect opinion from an SID, you're the one who is cooked. If you have the opinion of the compliance officer, then they are accountable when it turns out to be incorrect.
And always get written documentation of interpretations as they may change as the years go by and personnel change. You'll need this if some legal issue comes up. |
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