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|| SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board
basketball white balance on the 1D MKII
Phil Hawkins, Photographer
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Fresno | ca | usa | Posted: 5:00 PM on 01.04.07 |
->> For NCAA basketball:
I just bought a 1D MKII and wondered what everyone does to set white balance? Greytagmacbeth grey cards? ExpoDisc? Shoot in RAW and convert? Auto?
I just want to make sure I am not missing any tricks... I see so many shots with perfect white balance in available light, my results are not the same. I'm getting there, constantly trying new things, but wanted to survey the group for input.
Thanks!
Phil |
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Mike Ullery, Photographer
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Troy | OH | USA | Posted: 5:10 PM on 01.04.07 |
->> Phil,
If you can bring yourself to take the opinion of a Nikon user I'll put in my two cents.
I'm not sure that any two venues are alike. I shoot a lot in the auto white balance with Nikon and get decent results most of the time. I have found several places that seem to defy white balance auto and have found that doing either a custom white balance using a white shirt, etc. or using the Kelvin settings to "tweak" the white balance give good results.
Both Canon and Nikon have white balance memory for frequently used settings. If you shoot often in a particular venue, remember to save the settings for your next visit.
Mike |
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Aric Becker, Photographer
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Seattle | WA | USA | Posted: 5:38 PM on 01.04.07 |
->> Like Mike I use custom white balance. Gives the best results. I use a grey card to set my white balance on my Mark II. Hope this helps and good luck.
Aric |
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Alan Look, Photographer
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Bloomington | IL | United States | Posted: 5:48 PM on 01.04.07 |
->> Phil, I've used a grey card and custom set before every game in the past.
I've switched to using a white card (well, I actually use a 6x9 hard sided white envelope so it will hold up in my bag) and custom set before each game.
I looked through a couple of newer camera manuals lately - including the IIn. They suggest the white card.
It seems to work, but I tweak it a little bit with the color tone option that is available in the customizable parameters setting. |
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Nick Wass, Photographer
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Wheaton | MD | USA | Posted: 10:02 PM on 01.04.07 |
->> phil
i use nikons-yes a rarity but--
for nba is usually set a white balance-custom white balance- off the ball kids shirts who wear gray t shirts at warm ups before wizards games-it's like a 18% gray card but bigger-works like a charm-though i have seen guys use the expo disc
store the white balance for each arena or use the k value white balance if you can set it it may be only a nikon thing setting the k white balance or kelvin
nick |
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Nick Wright, Photographer, Photo Editor
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William Guerro, Photographer
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Galloway | NJ | USA | Posted: 8:09 AM on 01.05.07 |
| ->> I recently purchased an "EXPO DISK" for custom WB and it works great. You just snap the disk over your lens and point the camera towards your light source and snap a frame, then set your custom WB. Colors look great, I really like it so far. |
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David Harpe, Photographer
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Louisville | KY | USA | Posted: 9:22 AM on 01.05.07 |
| ->> A lot of indoor courts use lights that have some flicker to them, and depending on where you catch the flicker you can end up with a color shift. I generally white balance off of a grey card, and I either use a slow shutter speed (to get an average) or shoot a burst on manual exposure and pick the brightest frame. |
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Guy Rhodes, Photographer
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East Chicago | IN | USA | Posted: 9:30 AM on 01.05.07 |
->> This is a good time to plug my stadium lighting thread once again:
http://www.sportsshooter.com/message_display.html?tid=20873
As David Harpe reminds us, no matter what white balance you're locked in to, you're still going to get brightness / color shifts under discharge lighting in gyms (like mercury vapor, for example) if you're above 1/60 shutter speed. David's two solutions are really the only way to deal with this short of using strobes.
Shooting raw only helps with the color problem, as the output of the light fixture is also rising and falling along with the color shifting. Different circuits of light above different areas of the court might be on different phases of power, peaking and falling at different times, meaning you might have a group of players in one area of the court brighter / darker than another area at any given time.
I love strobes for basketball, I REALLY do. |
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Mike Ullery, Photographer
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Troy | OH | USA | Posted: 9:37 AM on 01.05.07 |
->> I was just looking at the Expo Disk that William mentioned. (B&H Photo $99.00). It looks like a promising toy, I mean tool. While I'm not sure about spending a hundred bucks for something to replace a white t-shirt of piece of paper and one more thing that I have to carry, I would be interested in hearing more about this new product. Any other users? I'm not trying to hijack this thread as I think it is all related.
Thanks,
Mike |
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Phil Hawkins, Photographer
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Fresno | ca | usa | Posted: 2:38 PM on 01.05.07 |
->> Boy what an education!! I had no idea about the mercury vapor lights and the color shifting... I was noticing a color shift during burst mode shooting, but it wasn't significant enough to affect my results... I also noticed last night that they seem to have a mixture of lighting in the Save Mart Center in Fresno; some lights seem to have a good color balance, and others seem to have a magenta cast to them... strange...
Last night I took my custom white balance readings off the black/grey/white combination, thinking it would give my camera a wider gamut to sample. It worked pretty good, but I still had a slight green cast on my JPGs. It was easily corrected with adding blue, but I still see PERFECT white balance in other people's work... maybe they're adding blue as well, but it looks too good to not be captured that way... Look at Nick Wright's Wichita State shot from the above post: http://www.photoshelter.com/img-show/I0000VcvHO5SARh8 THIS is what I'd like to achieve. NO color cast at all save a little green cast on the flesh tones... But this had to be captured the way it looks...
Saturday night I have another game and I'll take my sample as a grey-only to set custom and see what happens.
Thanks!
Phil |
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Phil Hawkins, Photographer
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Fresno | ca | usa | Posted: 2:40 PM on 01.05.07 |
->> Oh, by the way, I forgot to comment on Mike's post about the ExpoDisc; those have actually been around for quite some time, but I cannot bring myself to spend $99 if grey cards will do just as well. I'd sure like to test it first, though...
Phil |
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David Butler II, Photographer
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Somers | CT | USA | Posted: 2:48 PM on 01.05.07 |
->> Hi Phil,
I have been using a gray card for basketball… the shots on ss page are recent images using CWB... all from camera but through PS for added contrast, a little saturation, sizing and sharpening. I think a gray card or white card would work fine for you… AWB just doesn’t do it for me…
Be good,
dbii |
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Louis Lopez, Photographer
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Fontana | CA | USA | Posted: 3:32 PM on 01.05.07 |
->> Expodisc, I have found better results than from a grey card.
Mike, the way the expodisc gathers the light read and to balance is a little more involved than a white t-shirt or piece of paper, yet literally is as easy as pop it over your lens.
I used to have a similar opinion until I actually bought one and used it for the first time at Pauley Pavillion, it is easier to get the correct white balance than from a grey card. Several other photographers saw me with it and asked me to try it as well and there reactions were "wow, it does make a difference" etc.. |
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Nick Wright, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Independence | KS | USA | Posted: 5:24 PM on 01.05.07 |
->> Phil, the two shots I put up were both shot and worked in exactly the same manner. The shot from Wichita State looks so good because the gym had such good lighting.
There's only so much you can do with crappy lighting. |
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Phil Hawkins, Photographer
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Fresno | ca | usa | Posted: 5:25 PM on 01.05.07 |
->> Thanks Louis, that's all I need to hear... For those of you not aware of it, Louis is one hell of a photog. He and I both shoot for Cal Sport Media and his stuff is excellent.
Thanks, Louis...
Phil |
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Chuck Steenburgh, Photographer
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Lexington | VA | USA | Posted: 8:32 AM on 01.06.07 |
->> I'll second the value of the ExpoDisc...I'd read the "pundits" raving about this for years but I too balked at the cost. I finally found a used one on eBay for a slightly lower price.
What's funny is most of the "experts" who talk about the ExpoDisc don't appear to know how to use it. But to elaborate on what Louis said, it's basically the opposite of the grey card...it turns your camera into an incident meter, rather than a spot meter. And it is very easy to use. I use a 77mm disc which works not only on my 80-200 AF-S but fits nicely on the hoods of my 85 and 50 primes as well. Stand out on the court, point the camera at the lights, and meter and/or set CWB. (Doesn't work as well for changing settings mid-game, of course...)
Under good lighting, the ExpoDisc yields perfect white balance...and exposure, too. Under that pulsing light...it's only so-so, but nothing else is better. |
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Phil Hawkins, Photographer
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Fresno | ca | usa | Posted: 2:16 PM on 01.06.07 |
->> Let me ask a deeper question; regarding the pulsing mercury vapor lights (I think it's mercury vapor that pulse) would not a longer exposure of, say, 1/30 be the ticket? Seems that would give you a good blended sample to use w/ the ExpoDisc...
Also, you point them DIRECTLY AT the lights instead of on your subject matter?
Thanks
Phil |
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Nick Wright, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Independence | KS | USA | Posted: 4:36 PM on 01.06.07 |
->> For white balancing, yes, that would be good.
The problem occurs when you try to make a photo. Basketball at 1/30th of a second is pretty blurry in my experience. *winkwink* |
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Guy Rhodes, Photographer
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East Chicago | IN | USA | Posted: 5:39 PM on 01.06.07 |
->> Phil,
Nick Wright is correct. As illustrated in my "pulsing lighting" tests (as linked to previously in this thread), white balancing at 1/30th wasn't the problem. It was going above 1/60th of a second shutter speed that started to make the flickering visible in the images.
Basketball at 1/30th, or even 1/60th, would be pretty blurry.
*No matter* what white balance you're locked into (Expodisc acquired or otherwise), you're going to get color and brightness shifting to some degree under mercury vapor / fluorescent lights if you're above 1/60th shutter speed here in the U.S., period. |
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Phil Hawkins, Photographer
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Fresno | ca | usa | Posted: 6:52 PM on 01.06.07 |
->> Guy,
Your stuff has been a tremendous education in basketball arena lighting... Thanks so much!! I went back to my images from this week and did indeed see a slight shift especially in burst mode...
Again, thanks!
Phil |
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Chuck Steenburgh, Photographer
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Lexington | VA | USA | Posted: 7:09 PM on 01.06.07 |
->> Phil,
Yep. That was my reaction when I read the ExpoDisc instructions, too...so I tried it all three ways. Directly at the lights works best, at least when you have a strong, consistent light source. Most D-I arenas I've been in would fall into this category.
They do recommend pointing from the subject position back toward shooting position in mixed lighting.
Chuck |
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Guy Rhodes, Photographer
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East Chicago | IN | USA | Posted: 7:52 AM on 01.07.07 |
->> I posted an animated .gif of flickering lights shot at high shutter speeds over on my stadium lighting thread, you can see it here:
http://www.sportsshooter.com/message_display.html?tid=20873#15
Phil,
No problem, I appreciate being able to help. I studied lighting design in college, and lighting is my primary area of employment / interest outside of photography and video. As such, much of what I do involves making light (especially stage light) behave well with cameras. Fun stuff! |
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Rick Burnham, Photographer
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Enfield | CT | USA | Posted: 6:33 AM on 01.08.07 |
| ->> I just turn my white balance setting to the picture of the basketball. :D (I've been dying to be a wise guy and say that.) |
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