| Sign in: |
| Members log in here with your user name and password to access the your admin page and other special features. |
|
|
|
|
|| SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board
Is ETTL2 worth it?
Nick Wright, Photographer, Photo Editor
 |
Independence | KS | USA | Posted: 6:00 PM on 12.14.06 |
->> Looking at purchasing another camera body soon. It's going to be one of the 1 series. I'm generally happy with the 1D (Mk1). The only thing I don't like is the flash system.
It's annoying, to me, to have to be constantly fiddling with the flash exposure comp as the scene changes. And that's not to mention basketball games where one team's jerseys are all white and the others' all dark. I set the FEC for the white jerseys then I get a photo where the dark jersey is dominant and instead of having a properly exposed photo now I've got one that's two stops over exposed.
So my question is, is ETTL2 worth it? Does it really help much in situations where your subject is highly biased towards one tone or another?
Thanks! |
|
Matthew Rosenberg, Photographer
 |
Charlottesville | VA | United States | Posted: 6:54 PM on 12.14.06 |
->> Nick, I don think that having ETTL2 is going to be the answer to your problem. I would purchase a set of monolights instead of a new body. In my experience ETTL2 is better but the multitude of situations encountered in basketball is going to throw off the best systems.
The orginal 1D also has an advantage over the newer versions in that it can sync at 500th of a second. Newer versions (the MKII and MKIIn) only sync at 250th of a second. The higher shutter speed on the 1D limits ghosting.
Having a set of strobes will get rid of color casts, stop the action better, and just look a whole lot better.
-Matt |
|
Nick Wright, Photographer, Photo Editor
|
Independence | KS | USA | Posted: 7:05 PM on 12.14.06 |
| ->> Strobes are not an option. |
|
JohnPaul Greco, Photographer, Assistant
|
Waukesha | WI | USA | Posted: 9:18 PM on 12.14.06 |
->> Yes,...ETTL II (580EX) is better, more consistant than what I have found on ETTL (550EX) but it is not perfect in all situations..
When I first tested it out in my home, I could see that it was much much better than the old,... and seriously, when the flash system sux so bad that even a slight improvement makes it seem "wonderful",... it is worth it! ...at least to me it was.. :-)
There are still situations that will "fool" it.. and shooting in manual mode is not always an option..
I'm still learning it a little.. I'd say, for general use, set the flash to +1/2 to + 1 and you should be o.k. within a 1/2 stop normally.. :-
The best thing to do is to test it for your shooting needs, which may be different than mine,...depending on what you are doing, and what lenses you have..that sort of thing..
GL!
JP |
|
Nick Wright, Photographer, Photo Editor
|
Independence | KS | USA | Posted: 9:32 PM on 12.14.06 |
->> Just as a clarification, ETTL2 is a function of the body not the flash.
A 580EX on a 1D will still operate in plain ole' ETTL. On the other hand a 550EX on a 1DMk2 will operate in ETTL2. |
|
Christopher Koutsis, Photographer
 |
huntington | ny | USA | Posted: 12:00 AM on 12.15.06 |
| ->> just curious why strobes are not an option? 2 550s with a set of pw's or their generic counterparts would surely cost less than a new camera...the whole setup would do wonders for your indoor stuff. As Matthew already said ETTL2 won't help that situation much. |
|
Ric Tapia, Student/Intern, Photographer
 |
Santa Barbara | CA | USA | Posted: 12:20 AM on 12.15.06 |
->> Christopher Koutsis,
Nick Is looking to buy a new camera! |
|
Greg Ferguson, Photographer
|
Scottsdale | Az | USA | Posted: 12:53 AM on 12.15.06 |
->> To confirm - eTTL and eTTL2 are functions of the body, not of the flashes.
eTTL2 handles hot spots and reflections a bit better than eTTL, but neither will do the right thing once a scene is mostly white or mostly black because of jerseys. A similar situation is a wedding scene with a bride and her maids in white (or light colors) and the groom and the men in tuxes or dark colors.
When you're in a situation like that, you're better off switching to manual mode, especially when you're in a fairly controlled lighting condition like a gym. The cool thing about the 1D (or newer) bodies is they'll recognize a dTTL flash like the 550ex or 580ex, and will adjust the output of the flash to provide the needed light if you leave the flash in its normal mode.
Still, with extremes of the jerseys you'll probably want to try full manual on the body and the flash too. As good as the bodies are at setting exposure, there are times they'll do the wrong thing - extremes in contrast are one of those times and you'll have to step in to force it to do the right thing.
Being able to sync a 1D at 1/500 is one of the main things I like about having a 1D - besides it being a great body. I've tested mine well past 1/500 sync with my Pocket Wizards and strobes. And the CCD, being that old technology, also can avoid ghosting at 3.5 stops over ambient instead of 4.5 stops (for the CMOS sensors), which means faster recycling and shorter flash duration with White Lightnings.
So, I'd say, stick with the 1D, tell the camera what exposure to use, and see what happens. |
|
Christopher Koutsis, Photographer
|
huntington | ny | USA | Posted: 12:54 AM on 12.15.06 |
| ->> Well then that probably explains why strobes aren't an option then doesn't it. Don't know how I forgot that tiny detail by the time I responded...Well although I don't feel ETTL2 will help the bball situations you speak of, it really is a terrific new feature. It's definately more consistant. Sorry about the confusion! |
|
Daniel Plassmann, Photographer
 |
York | SC | United States | Posted: 2:38 AM on 12.15.06 |
->> I don't know a lot about how to setup the Flash manually but I had my Canon 1D with a 580Ex setup to manual the camera settings where ISo 800 shutter 320/1 and F2.8 and the flash setup to manual 128th of a second putting out a nice even exposure right under the net but once the got farther away it got darker. I did not like shooting that way bc the team I was shooting was moving around to match but when they got under the net the images where all same lighted. Check in the manual of you flash you got and read up on how to setup the flash manually it might get that even exposure you are looking for. Hope I could help.
Daniel |
|
Curtis Clegg, Photographer
 |
Belvidere | IL | USA | Posted: 2:59 AM on 12.15.06 |
->> This season in both basketball and wrestling I have started using the flash exposure lock on my 30D before almost every exposure, mainly for the reasons Nick mentioned, with pretty good luck. I will put the focus point on an athlete's shoulder blade or back or thigh or face (or one of the uniforms if it's a medium shade) and hit the * button, and then keep hitting the * as the action moves near or far. It's kind of a pain, especially since I can't use the * button for autofocus, but it's the best solution I have found so far.
Tonight I photographed a wrestling tournament where both teams had black uniforms. E-TTL got completely confused... even with FEC turned to -2 E-TTL washed everything out... the flash probably thought the athletes were invisible, or they were many yards further away than they actually were.
Do any flashes have a simple automatic mode, that is tied to AF and considers only distance to subject as a factor for output? It seems like a much more elegant solution as long as you aren't using multiple strobes, bounce, or modifiers. |
|
Greg Ferguson, Photographer
|
Scottsdale | Az | USA | Posted: 11:08 AM on 12.15.06 |
->> "shutter 320/1"
320 second exposure? DANG that's a dark room!
"[...]putting out a nice even exposure right under the net but once the got farther away it got darker."
That's the physics of light and part of the reason why people put their flashes on stands at the corners of the room when shooting manually. Allowing the camera to figure out the exposure and control the flash output is 'sposed to counteract that problem, but then the autoexposure gets confused by the elements in the scene and does the wrong thing.
Sometimes we're damned if we do, and damned if we don't. That's when we make educated guesses and experiment... like with that 320 second exposure thang. :-) |
|
Greg Ferguson, Photographer
|
Scottsdale | Az | USA | Posted: 11:27 AM on 12.15.06 |
->> "Tonight I photographed a wrestling tournament where both teams had black uniforms. E-TTL got completely confused... even with FEC turned to -2 E-TTL washed everything out... the flash probably thought the athletes were invisible, or they were many yards further away than they actually were."
The autoexposure system in a camera wants to make white be 18% gray. It also wants to make black be 18% gray. To do that it either underexposes whites or overexposes blacks. In a well-balanced scene there will be enough whites, blacks and other colors to average out to an 18% gray-tone so the camera's assumption about exposure will end up with an image that falls within the latitude of the sensor or film. If it makes a mistake then we get blown out highlights or blocked-up darks.
The camera is overexposing the black jerseys and overpowering the flash because it's seeing black, and figuring it needs to make it gray. This is one of those pathological situations when you've got to wrest control from the camera and tell it what to do.
Some of today's bodies are smarter about dealing with snow and will allow the white to be white, but still they'll get confused if the scene doesn't match one of the pre-analyzed scenes in its ROM and then the snow will be dingy gray and everything else will be under-exposed.
"Do any flashes have a simple automatic mode, that is tied to AF and considers only distance to subject as a factor for output? It seems like a much more elegant solution as long as you aren't using multiple strobes, bounce, or modifiers."
Quantum has that in their flashes, but that's because Quantum makes no assumptions about the capability of the camera. Nikon and Canon assume their flashes will be used with their cameras, and they know their current lineup of bodies have certain capabilities, and to encourage the use of their flashes with their bodies, and to make them easy to use for average shooters, they remove the ability to get the flash and/or camera to do the wrong thing because the user fiddled with something. Unfortunately that means people who know what they're doing can't get the camera and flash to do the right thing either.
Part of the problem you're seeing is in how the camera is metering the scene. Full matrix metering is going to allow the entire scene to weigh into the exposure calculation, with the center of the scene (or the active focus sensor) getting more attention and weight. If the main subject is wearing black or white, and it's got more weight in the calculation of the exposure, then the other elements in the image will be under/over exposed.
That's why the bodies have the option of using manual mode to turn off the autoexposure capability entirely. Alternate ways to handle the situation using autoexposure would be to switch from matrix metering to use center-weighted or spot metering or to use eTTL or eTTL2. |
|
Nick Wright, Photographer, Photo Editor
|
Independence | KS | USA | Posted: 12:28 PM on 12.15.06 |
->> Strobes are not an option primarily because I don't have time to set them up. It is not uncommon near the end of the season to be assigned to cover three high school basketball games on a single night (which all start at the same time go go gadget time machine).
Anyway. Thanks for the responses. But it occured to me while waiting for replies that I should just borrow one from CPS and see for myself, so I put in my request and I'll have my answers sometime in January.
I'm curious Greg, you wrote dTTL. I haven't heard of it, and would appreciate if you would explain further. |
|
Oscar Sosa, Photographer
 |
Jacksonville | FL | USA | Posted: 12:41 PM on 12.15.06 |
->> Nick,
In my opinion ETTL2 is very much worth it. Exposures are much more consistent. I'd recommend shooting with the strobe tuned down a little, like around -1/3 to -2/3 stop exposure compensation on the flash. I've had good results with that. When I use fill-flash outdoors in bright sun I turn my strobe down about -1 1/3 to -1 2/3. My fill-flash looks great and I have very little post-processing work.
I'd definetly give it a good look since it's an improvement. And any improvement, even a small one can sometimes pay off big.
Oscar |
|
JohnPaul Greco, Photographer, Assistant
|
Waukesha | WI | USA | Posted: 12:46 PM on 12.15.06 |
->> Hmm... and now I know...
(boy do I feel dumb).. ;-)
JP |
|
Jeff Martin, Photographer
 |
wellington | OH | usa | Posted: 3:29 PM on 12.15.06 |
| ->> NICK, most definitly an improvement. Worth the 4K a mIIn costs? I don't know. The "overall" quality of your take will be better much as Oscar has said. It doesn't work every time but is much better. Your CPS loaner idea is the way to go. |
|
Greg Ferguson, Photographer
|
Scottsdale | Az | USA | Posted: 4:35 PM on 12.15.06 |
->> dTTL is just a short-hand for digital TTL vs. the TTL from film days.
For the perversely curious:
With TTL, the light for the exposure was measured off the film plane and the shutter was closed when enough light for a correct exposure was sensed. That made it pretty foolproof to use a TTL-capable strobe. The camera triggered the strobe, then waited until the strobe put out enough light for a correct exposure, then turned off the strobe and closed the shutter.
Back when digital SLR bodies were being designed, one of the things the designers ran into was the lack of a film plane. The sensor reflects light differently than film. So, to figure out how to set the right flash exposure, they told the camera to make the TTL flash fire a preliminary pop - a preflash - and to read the light from the scene directly to determine what exposure or flash settings to use. And that led to problems with hotspots and reflections fooling the autoexposure which led to eTTL and eTTL2.
The problem with the preflash idea was the Speedlight-type flashes usually didn't have enough reserve to do the preflash and then immediately follow it with a full pop, so the flashes had to be redesigned. I think they tweaked the recycle time and capacitor so it'd hold more power for the second burst. And, then to annoy us no end they added special analog handshake between the flash and the camera body through the hotshoe contacts, so the camera knew the flash was capable of doing that preflash magic. If the camera doesn't sense the "dTTL"-ness, it'll turn off the preflash and act stupid - basically falling back to a manual mode where it does just what it's told, only if we're not aware it's doing that then it'll screw the exposures up badly.
That's why we have to shoot in manual mode with dTTL-capable flashes connected to the body using PocketWizards or PC cords - the digital body hasn't got a clue about the strobe's capabilities because the flash-capability-sensing fails.
Back when I shot film I'd never noticed TTL effecting strobe output. Then one night I had to grab my film body (F100) because my D1x was freaking for some reason. As soon as I fired a shot I thought the flash was acting up. Instead of a big burst I got this little blip. I fired again with the same result. Then I realized the F100 didn't need no stinkin' pre-flash to figure out the exposure and was only taking what it needed. And, that's when I started wishing Canon and Nikon would have bought into Fuji's method of measuring light from the sensor instead of using the preflash... but alas... no such luck for us.
I think that's the gist of the reasons behind dTTL being invented and why we see the cameras behave the ways they do when we use them with non-dTTL strobes or with remotes that don't transmit the TTL and dTTL flash info.
My dream is that some day we'll get faster PocketWizards that can transmit all the flash information to the camera so we can use the PW range and still get the integration with the flashes we're using to having when they're directly attached to the body using the hotshoe.
And, while I'm at it, I want to see White Lightning and Elincrom (sp?) implement dTTL or Nikon and Canon use Fuji's method so strobe photography gets even more foolproof... and I want world peace and a bajillion dollars too.... |
|
Greg Ferguson, Photographer
|
Scottsdale | Az | USA | Posted: 4:47 PM on 12.15.06 |
->> Oscar says: "In my opinion ETTL2 is very much worth it. Exposures are much more consistent."
IMO, yes and no.
eTTL2 uses a different algorithm that analyzes the scene's exposure differently. It tries to figure out where reflections and/or hot-spots are and then ignore them in the exposure and flash-output calculation. It's kind of like a very good matrix metering.
eTTL is more like a "everything in the scene is equally important" way of thinking. It's like metering with a huge center-weighted meter only the entire scene is the center. This means a hot-spot or reflection is going to reduce the exposure, even if that reflection isn't in a primary zone for the scene.
There are times when I'm shooting and I'm dealing with big reflective banners and eTTL2 will do the wrong thing so I'm better off reverting to eTTL. Usually... uh... sometimes... I'll remember... to check beforehand and then switch if I don't like the results. Now I use my strobes almost all the time instead of my Quantum X2D or 550ex flashes and eTTL/eTTL2 is a non-issue because I'm shooting manually. |
|
Nick Wright, Photographer, Photo Editor
|
Independence | KS | USA | Posted: 5:15 PM on 12.15.06 |
->> I was unaware that you could switch between ETTL and ETTL2.
Also I thought the big deal about ETTL2 is that it incorporates distance into the flash equation. Which is what they should've done as soon as they started putting chips into lenses, IMO. Using reflected light to gauge flash exposure (in direct flash situations) is a ridiculous idea now that lenses can transmit distance to the camera. |
|
Greg Ferguson, Photographer
|
Scottsdale | Az | USA | Posted: 7:13 PM on 12.15.06 |
->> "I was unaware that you could switch between ETTL and ETTL2"
Only on bodies that already support eTTL2. The 1D doesn't support it, but my 20D lets me choose.
"Using reflected light to gauge flash exposure (in direct flash situations) is a ridiculous idea now that lenses can transmit distance to the camera."
Consider a situation where there's some bottles or mirrors or something reflective, but it's incidental, off to the side of the subject. eTTL2 will try to downplay the reflection and light from that but eTTL will incorporate it into the exposure setting. It can make a big difference.
Distance is only part of the equation as it tells the camera how much light the flash needs to emit to correctly light the subject. |
|
Nick Wright, Photographer, Photo Editor
|
Independence | KS | USA | Posted: 7:21 PM on 12.15.06 |
->> "Distance is only part of the equation as it tells the camera how much light the flash needs to emit to correctly light the subject."
That should be all the camera needs to know, as long as the flash is pointed straight at the subject ... isn't it?
Cause that's how we did it before ETTL or auto flash ... Who remembers the equation? GN divided by ISO gives ... no that's wrong. Oh well, I don't remember it. |
|
Greg Ferguson, Photographer
|
Brett Gundlock, Photographer, Assistant
|
Calgary | AB | Canada | Posted: 2:39 PM on 12.16.06 |
->> Even just one remote flash , a stop over ambient is going to improve your images a lot.
Setting up a flash on a stand only takes 2 min, and less to take it down. So if you have more then 5 min to cover a game, it is a good option. |
|
|| Sponsor Special Deals
We BUY & TRADE you OLD Gear
|
Available from:
Adorama Camera
|
Price: $0.00 |
Notes:
We all have some cameras & lenses sitting around collecting dust right?...Or you work at a Newspaper that has downsized?...What to do with your excess photographic equipment? Adorama's Used Dept is looking for your used gear to purchase or take in trade. Contact me directly jsnyder@adorama.com or 1-800-223-2500 X2435 and I can fill you in on the details. Cash in your pocket is better than sitting on the shelf, right?
|
|
-- More Info -- |
|
Return to --> Message Board Main Index
|