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Do we really think this low of our fellow photographers?
Nadine Redd, Photographer
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Prairie Village | KS | USA | Posted: 12:52 PM on 07.31.06 |
->> Many know that I am not working in the field of photography as my full-time job but work every week on my shooting so when the opportunity presents it's self I am ready.
This past weekend I went to a major tournament being held in KC to practice. I know the rules. I do not get on the field, I do not actively sell my work and I always look to see if there is an event photographer there.
I photographed one game and went back to the concession stand to get out of the sun. A man approached and told me that I should go look at my team's photos at his booth. I explained I did not have a "team" playing here, and then I knew there was an event photographer (I was there before they had set up their tent).
This brought a puzzled look to his face as I explained I lived in KC and was just out practicing. He questioned if I was out there selling. I told me no. He told me, "you know you cannot go on the field and you better not hand out any of your business cards". I explained I knew the rules and had no plans to sell or even approach a parent. I handed him my business card and told him to check out my website and he would see I was not posting any of the photographs on my site.
I said, "Sir, I promise you that I am only out here practicing and if you knew me you would know that". His response is what really surprised me. He said, I know you are lying for one no one would ever be out in this 100 degree weather just practicing and photographers are just cut-throat". With that he walked off also letting me know he paid a lot of money to be the event photographer.
I felt bad because really all I was doing was practicing and there were no photographers at the games on Sat. or Sun so I was not in the way.
Made me hesitate to go back on Sun. But I did and perhaps I am somewhat crazy because it sure hot this past weekend. But I loved it.
By the way, I was approached my several parents asking if I was the event photographer. When I explained no I was not, but that I knew they had one so they might want to checkout the website of the tournament. |
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Dirk Dewachter, Photographer
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Playa Del Rey | CA | USA | Posted: 1:11 PM on 07.31.06 |
->> Nadine,
Don't feel guilty because you don't owe him an explanation and I would have just walked away especially since you were just honing your skills. It just shows his ignorance. |
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Tim Bettis, Photographer
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Austell | Ga | USA | Posted: 1:23 PM on 07.31.06 |
->> Nadine,
I too am fairly new in this game and I have to say that I have met a lot of photographers and the majority of them are great people. This profession, just like a thousand others can be pretty cut-throat at times, IMO because of the all-mighty dollar.
I ALWAYS check before going to an event to shoot to see if the promoters have it covered or other photographers are already on-site. I DON'T try to "step on toes" or take away from someone who I feel is putting in the same time and effort that I am because I know how much it would bother me, and even more so, the guys and ladies that already have so much more time invested than I do.
Thus far in the 3-4 short years that I have been fighting to make this work, I have only butted heads with one guy. My view on him is that eventually he will "ego" himself out of the business, and until then, I avoid him, ( as much as possible), and sit back and laugh.
I would say to continue to do what you do...be a good person and put forth the respect that you would have others show you and you will gravitate towards the better people in the business and they will appreciate you for just that. As for those select few that choose to be a pain...smile politely, then turn and go back to what you were doing. I'm finding out rather quickly that if someone is indeed supposed to be the only person/company to cover and event, they will usually let you know in a nice way and there's very seldom a problem. The others talk really loudly to try to intimidate you only to find that they don't have a leg to stand on.
Tim |
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Richard Denham, Photographer
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Niagara/Toronto/Buffalo | On | Canada | Posted: 1:42 PM on 07.31.06 |
| ->> it's funny, because I as well am also new, and have come across both good and bad instances. It realy just depends on both people. I have had some pro's who wouldn't give me the time of day when i first satrted and it came back to haunt them 6 months later. However i have also had the oppertunity to meet some realy nice people, who have been in the business along time, who are willing to give me a chance. like i said earlier it just depends on the individual. |
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Michael Fischer, Photographer
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Spencer | Ia | USA | Posted: 1:53 PM on 07.31.06 |
->> Nadine;
Dealing with people is sometimes a VERY $hitty job. He was feeling very threatned -he was VERY territorial - just like animals are, and it showed.
The best defense is exactly what you did - tell the truth. It's pretty difficult to argue with someone who is telling the truth and when you did he was left with nothing else to say but make unfounded accusations.
My response would have been something along the lines of "Evidently Jack Nicholson WAS right. You CAN'T handle the truth. Most of the photographers I know are not only not cut-throat; but good and compasionate people. Glad we don't run in the same circles. Have a nice day." Then turn around and walk away.
But if you weren't looking for a confrontation, you handled it just fine.
Michael |
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Michael Granse, Photographer
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Urbana | IL | USA | Posted: 1:57 PM on 07.31.06 |
->> If the guy was this tense, he probably paid way too much to be the photographer and by that point was expecting to make way too little for it to be profitable.
Anyone who is involved in a "people business" that is that nasty to someone probably is not doing very well and will not be doing it for very long. |
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Kent Gilley, Photographer
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Azle | TX | USA | Posted: 2:37 PM on 07.31.06 |
->> >>I ALWAYS check before going to an event to shoot to see if the promoters have it covered or other photographers are already on-site.
Tim, I think this practice(above) for event photography is what has eliminated 99% of potential problems in your 3-4 years, and is sound advise. I do this same thing.
The only time I was ever questioned by another photographer was at a little league field in Saginaw, Texas when I just "stopped by" on the way back from a track to try my hand at little league. I too was just practicing, and I encountered a similiar problem as Nadine. I just told the guy, "Hey, I should have called first, I'm just coming back from shooting motocross (pointed to my trailer), and this is just for me, I've never shot little league before and I don't live here." I think the fact that I apologized may have helped and he calmed down, and let me go on out to take what would become some really, really, crappy pictures.
Now, on the flip side, I have been at one event that I was the photographer who was promised to be the only photographer, so I simply ask the security person to go an let him know. I did this because A)I was heading out to the track, and B)it was more likely to get done with a big gnarly security gaurd talking to him. I wasn't rude or demanding, I just reminded the track of the promise. I didn't think I was being underhanded, I had a written promise, and I just wanted to keep what I had negotiated. They guy packed up and left, and I have no idea what he thinks about me. |
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Erik Anderson, Photographer
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Kansas City | MO | | Posted: 2:41 PM on 07.31.06 |
->> Nadine,
As mentioned, I wouldn't stress over this individual. I've had several interactions with area photographers and only one has been negative. I'm typically the event photog who gets approached similarly to how you described. If asked politely, I've got no problem letting someone shoot with me, as long as it's for practice and they aren't marketing to my clientle. There are some photographers who are simply too blind to recognize the real impact to having another shooter cover an event, especially someone who was as open and honest as you.
I did have one 'gentleman' who was very buddy buddy to find out what I did, how I did it, etc and it just smelled funny. After he didn't get all the information that he wanted, he walked up to the announcers booth and had HIM announced as the official photographer of the event. We shot the same event competitively and had my ego stroked by the majority of the attendees who ended up buying from me.
Until I get burned (and I will, it's just a question of when), I'll continue to be just as professional and polite as I can. On a side note, since we're in the same neighboorhood, would you mind emailing the individuals name so that I can avoid them? :) |
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Kent Gilley, Photographer
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Azle | TX | USA | Posted: 2:41 PM on 07.31.06 |
| ->> Sorry for the errors folks. I really kan tipe beter than dat. |
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Bill Mitchell, Photographer
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Tempe | AZ | USA | Posted: 3:40 PM on 07.31.06 |
->> ->> >>His response is what really surprised me. He said, I know you are lying for one no one would ever be out in this 100 degree weather just practicing
If this man ever comes to Arizona, he may run into me out practicing at baseball games when the temperature is approaching 115! But it's a dry heat. |
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Thierry Gourjon, Photographer
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New York | NY | USA | Posted: 3:47 PM on 07.31.06 |
->> Nadine,
Out of curiosity, do you have any pics of him rubbing on all the various poles around the field to leave his scent as all mammals do?
T. |
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Pedja Milosavljevic, Photographer
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Belgrade | Serbia | Serbia & Montenegro | Posted: 4:39 PM on 07.31.06 |
| ->> What if I am a newspaper photographer and I get the assignment from my editor to cover "major turnament in KC" and I show up there with all my gear and logistic backup and assistant too. What would happen than? |
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Nick Mantzel, Photographer
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San Diego | CA | USA | Posted: 4:43 PM on 07.31.06 |
->> I have worked for "that guy" (there seems to be a few of them out there) before. In fact I was shooting for him this past weekend at a water polo tournament in LA.
My employer is very threatened by other photographers shooting at events that he has booked and will approach anyone with a long lens and interrogate them before telling them "you can't be here because we have the copyright to shoot this event and you do not." I have tried to explain to him that the only thing he has the copyright to is the images he shoots and that photographers can shoot whatever they want to while on public property, but he still insists on his copyright philosophy.
While shooting Saturday I noticed another guy shooting with a long lens and recognized his face. I went up to say hi and it turned out to be Robert Beck who was shooting some photos of his son and a family friend. I wish my boss had been there because I would have loved to see him try to tell Mr. Beck about his copyright infringement. |
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Walter Calahan, Photographer
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Westminster | MD | USA | Posted: 6:05 PM on 07.31.06 |
->> Some people are so insecure.
Tell him to piss off. Cheers Thierry.
But it won't last in a dry heat. Bill good one.
Grin. |
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Debra L Rothenberg, Photographer
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New York | NY | USA | Posted: 6:13 PM on 07.31.06 |
->> one word
INSECURE
Nadine, you did nothing wrong. I am hoping this is the worst jerk you will ever encounter as a photographer but I know that probably won't be the case. In my 23 years in this business, I can't tell you how many people like this I have met. I am very sorry to have to say this, but most were men and all have (too) MANY press passes around their necks from events that are years old.
The one thing that has been a constant the last few years is when I meet (or observe) a really nice guy..guess where he is a member? Of sportsshooter!
Debbie |
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Bert Entwistle, Photographer
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Colorado Springs | CO | USA | Posted: 6:33 PM on 07.31.06 |
->> Nadine,
After doing this for a long time, I hate to say it but you will run into these jerks again - and again - and again...
Tell him what you're doing there and ignore him, he's not worth the time spent to be nice.
If he still persists - take Walters advise and tell him to piss off.
Golly gee whizz Debra, 90% of the photogs I meet are men, it stands to reason that there are more guy jerks than girl jerks...!
Just teasing a little here...
I've actually had them try and run me off when I'm working as press and seen it done to other press people too.
Life is too short to worry about jerks.
Always have fun,
bert |
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Darren Whitley, Photographer
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Maryville | MO | USA | Posted: 7:41 PM on 07.31.06 |
->> Nadine,
Photography is a diverse and competitive profession. You find all types of photographers. I don't think the conduct you're talking about is indicative of the community here.
I have shot for an event photography company and it was our opinion that it wasn't our job to police what other photographers did. Our agreement was with the host and it was their obligation to police media conduct. As it was, we had a ton of photos to take so once we got started we didn't have time to moan or even worry about other photographers who might have been at an event.
Biggest problem for this guy is he may have lost a potential employee. Most event guys need good photographers so perhaps it's his loss in a significant way.
If you were in a public park, it becomes very difficult to enforce what others can do. |
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Jeremy Hogan, Photographer
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Bloomington | IN | USA | Posted: 8:11 PM on 07.31.06 |
->> Hey Nadine,
A lot of really talented photographers helped me get started in this profession. They gave me lots of advice, film, processing and sometimes even cameras and lenses to use (some even warned me I should find a profession I could make more money at ... ha, ha!).
I'll bet the guy who harrassed you just isn't a very good sports photographer, because if he was he'd concentrate on the game. I wonder how many good shots he missed while he was harrassing you? It sounds like he needs some practice in being nice too.
Anyway, I just shot 23 hours of video of a six day punk fest in the heat, I wasn't paid a thing and I used some of my precious vacation time. I'm practicing my filmmaking.
Keep practicing your shooting ... the more you shoot the better you'll get. |
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Michael McNamara, Photo Editor, Photographer
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St Louis (Chesterfield) | MO | USA | Posted: 8:33 PM on 07.31.06 |
| ->> The best shooters I've known are usually the nicest. I'd list names, but I'd leave some off by accident. Don't be threatened by the jerks. They have a reason to be insecure. |
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Zach Long, Student/Intern
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edmond | ok | USA | Posted: 8:56 PM on 07.31.06 |
| ->> every minute that guy spends being the "walker texas ranger" of event photography, the more time he is not doing what he is there to do "shooting". So just laugh at him, he is losing money by getting distracted by things he should just ignore. |
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N. Scott Trimble, Photographer
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Tempe | AZ | USA | Posted: 10:00 PM on 07.31.06 |
->> That photographer probably hates public bathrooms too, too intimidating.
I have to say though, I did shoot a sporting event once with paying clients, and came across a group of photographers that later offered most of my clients free photos of athletes they wanted. I and other photographers who had clients ended up eating three weeks of expenses because said clients went with the freebies. I can understand at times uptight photographers, but not at the expense of shedding professional poise. |
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Jeff Barrie, Photographer
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Indianapolis | IN | USA | Posted: 12:21 AM on 08.01.06 |
->> I was contacted by a dad who knew of my work with a local high school and asked if I could get a good shot of his kid playing baseball last year. He wanted a 20x30 poster. I told him that to come and shoot a game it was a flat fee for me attending and he could then get a discount on the prints. He agreed and we set a date for the game he wanted me to cover, when his kid would be pitching.
Turns out that was the same day some event company from up north of Indy was there. After the second inning a guy comes up and asks me what I am doing there. I asked him who he was and he said he was "the official photographer". I explained to him that I was hired close to two weeks ago by the father of the pitcher. He told me I couldn't shoot anymore because he was "the official photographer". I kind of laughed and said "good for you but I am on a paid assignment and unless you call the cops, I am not stopping." So, he did, call the cops that is.
It was actually kind of funny when the officer asked him if he owned the park the kids were playing in? Ahhhh no but..
Do you own the league they are playing in then? Ahhh no but... Well then I would suggest you get back to doing whatever it was you were doing and leave this guy alone. If I have to come back here again today, somebody is going to jail and I don't think Mr. Barrie has that in his near future.
Just about then some member of the board shows up. The cop explained to him that they can hire anyone they want to shoot their games but, they can't restrict anyone from shooting as it is on public property. The cop explained to the board guy what I was doing and he just shook his head and understood, I guess because he told the other guy to either leave me be or pack up and go home.
At the end of the 4th inning, I went over to the guy and explained that several parents had asked me about getting shots of their kids. I told him to come on over and shoot that game. He just looked at me like I was speaking a foreign language and huffed. I turned around and walked away.
The next weekend I went back to shoot that same team, which he never took one shot of and sold close to $400 in prints over the next 10 days. I hope I run into him again so I can tell him what he missed. |
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Bev Daly, Photographer
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Troy | OH | USA | Posted: 12:25 AM on 08.01.06 |
->> Nadine,
I think we have run into the same guy...! Except I'm in Ohio so, maybe just his evil twin is around here....
It seems as if anyone with a little extra money and some marketing savvy wants to get into the sports event photo market. They just let their high-priced equipment get the shots - which usually number in the thousands...and they police their event like it's a summit meeting of G8 proportions...
I've been on both sides of the fence, the "official" photographer and the "just stoppin by to shoot" photographer...If I have any issues with other photogs that I KNOW have websites, local ties, and are jerks, I have whatever authority in charge handle it if it's an event I have a contract or agreement with. I usually offer a percentage back to the host organization for this privilege and I just point that out to the powers-that-be that they won't receive a dime from the "jerk" photographer. That's normally all it takes to get their assistance.
I also agree that if you're approached like you were, the other guy is pretty insecure and needs to be sure no one "out-shoots" him. The other photographers in my area (that are doing what I'm doing) who have talent let it speak for itself. The two "jerks" that I run into periodically are insecure and I'm hoping, like Tim Bettis above, that they'll "ego" themselves right out of the business. They are not well-liked by other photographers OR parents, so I really think it's just a matter of time.
BTW - one of my favorite lines another photographer used when I was shooting a high school basketball tournament last winter - he asked me who I was shooting for (I showed him my media credential); he told me that he didn't want me using flash because he had strobes set up (in a large high school arena) and my camera-mounted flash would throw off his shots and he was the "official" photograher...yadda, yadda...I told him I was terribly sorry about that remote possibility, but being media, I was permitted to use flash so "oh well..." It was a good try though. I heard from other photographers on site that this guy always uses that same line because he wants all the exclusivity he can get. And, he's an excellent photographer and his talent can speak for itself. I don't know why he was so concerned.
It sounds to me like you handled that situation fine. If you're like me, though, just try to avoid the guy. Most likely he won't be around very much longer. |
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Greg Cooper, Photo Editor
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Ventura | CA | USA | Posted: 12:27 AM on 08.01.06 |
->> What happened to photography being fun?
Seems to me if somebody approahced me and told me I couldn't shoot pictures in a public place, they'd better have a gun, handcuffs and be ready to use them on me.
My guess Michael G. was right on, the man who approached you was too worried about his business and less concerned about making quality story telling pictures.
Good luck in the future Nadine and never loose sight why you got in to the field of photography in the first place.
Good luck,
--Greg |
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Dave Amorde, Photographer
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Lake Forest | CA | USA | Posted: 6:05 AM on 08.01.06 |
->> Now that everyone has burned this guy in effigy, allow me to give a different point of view...
For starters, I know full well that there are plenty of event shooters out there who have serious insecurities, and can be rude as hell. However, for every one of those I meet, I meet just as many fellow shooters who look me straight in the eye, tell me they're shooting for "practice", and then turn around and sell images.
An asshole is an asshole, whether it be due to rude bullying, or bald-faced lying. I'm not saying this guy isn't a jerk, but perhaps he's been conditioned that way by "fellow photographers".
As for competition: well, that's somewhat irrelevant. You see, the guy who's there under sanction is paying a significant percentage of his proceeds back to the sanctioning organization, whoever that may be. You want to legitimately compete? Then present your proposal to the league, sign a contract, and pay the damn vendor's fee. I've actually shared events, in cases where there are too many games going on at one time for me or "him" to cover, and it's worked out quite well. You never know until you try. In any case, it is highly likely Nadine wasn't the first photographer this guy's run into, and she certainly won't be the last. Especially one days when 300/2.8's seem to be growing out of the grass, it can be a bit frustrating.
And don't take is venting too personally. I assure you, he isn't nearly as pissed at you, as he is pissed at the organization for not doing their part to enforce their contract. If things really got out of control at an event I contracted for, I would (for starters) refuse to pay the vendors fee, and I wouldn't be back next year without a serious discussion with the powers that be.
As for the "shooting in a public place" argument, well that's just pure bullshit. I can almost guarantee you that whatever league your dealing with has been granted a permit by the city granting them exclusive use of the property - either over a "season of play", or "day of event". They often pay a hefty price for that permit, and it legally grants them the power to kick your sorry ass off the premises if they are so inclined. As a former league commissioner for AYSO soccer, I've signed a few of those permits myself. You wanna shoot in a "public place"? go across the street.
This guy may indeed have been a total jerk, and I'm sure Nadine didn't deserve it, and handled herself with class. However, that doesn't mean that there aren't some mitigating circumstances. Given that everyone has a bad day now and then, I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt. Event photography such as this is often a low margin operation; it only takes one or two "rogue" photographers to turn an event from a profit into a loss. If I have to choose between being nice or feeding my family, I'm sorry folks, but I'll be the rudest SOB on the field, if that's what it take to protect what I've paid for - in vendors fees, marketing, travel, etc.
How would you like someone to walk into your newsroom and start handing your editor quality images for free? Wouldn't you feel that your job was threatened, regardless of your own talent? Any time someone starts shooting an event like this without paying the standard overhead, that isn't "competition" - it's stealing, plain and simple. |
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Ron Erdrich, Photographer
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Abilene | TX | USA | Posted: 10:49 AM on 08.01.06 |
->> If you're a newspaper photographer on assignment, chances are you aren't any threat to this guy. You'll have one, maybe two photos in the paper and perhaps eight online if they are asking for a slide show.
Most event photographers know this and when I tell them I'm shooting for the paper they leave me alone. Yes, it is possible to order reprints from the paper, but only of those images that were actually published, either in print or online. That's small potatoes compared to the volume an event photographer is doing.
-R- |
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Greg Ferguson, Photographer
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Scottsdale | Az | USA | Posted: 1:26 PM on 08.01.06 |
->> I run into a lot of media and non-media photographers at the rodeos I'm shooting, and often spend time talking to them to give them tips and pointers on shooting rodeo action and, in the case of the media phojos, will even will introduce them to the competitors to help them get better stories.
There's also a lot of people standing around with pro gear who aren't media; Those are dealt with differently because of the PETA issues, and will be asked to stop shooting and return to their seat. There's no way to know if they're just an amateur or someone spying or what their intention is - I've had them tell one thing to me, then another to my wife, then something else to the arena security, so I've become very skeptical when the gear doesn't fit the story. That's a bit different situation, but still one I encounter often.
Then there are the ones who come in, want to learn from me, and then either sell without permission, or give photos away. We're dealing with one photographer right now and I'll have to explain the impropriety (and illegality) of that behavior. (It's illegal because they've signed away their rights just to be shooting at the arena with a "media" badge.) |
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Karl Stolleis, Photographer
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Santa Fe | NM | USA | Posted: 2:07 PM on 08.01.06 |
->> Here is the rub - I think the situation was handled appropriately but if you present media credentials and you still think you have "exclusive rights" then you are wrong. I would be interested to hear what the event organizers thought if there was no news coverage of the event because their "offical" photog was running folks off. My first thought would be to let the event folks know that they are dealing with a rude individual.
I understand the idea of protecting your turf but that can be a pleasant experience, rather than one like this. |
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Ed J. Szalajeski, Photographer
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Portland | ME | USA | Posted: 3:19 PM on 08.01.06 |
->> Karl:
You have to ask yourself, who the customers of the event are. In most cases the events customers are the athletes, and the teams pay to be in the tournament, and parents want photographs of there children at these events.
The event organizers also want photographic services, because they compete with other events with the over-all product they offer at these events.
Yes, the PR is nice, however most event organizers know they have vendors who paid a fee to be there, and do enforce the contract.
One venue I shoot at, the venue owner pushes the media requests through us, so we know who will be there, since it is a closed venue, we are the only ones who can sell.
Even a person practicing, who posts images on their own site can be looked at, as taking potential money from the venue owners pocket, because sometimes looking at "free" images are enough to satisfy the people at these events.
Specifically where No Online sales occur and you purchase only at the venue either after the event, or the following week.
Some event organizers understand better than others, and Nadine, if you had permission from the organizer you should simply point that out to the photographer, and the story should end.
This is not an excuse for that person being rude, and typically if you let that person act out and remain calm, the customers will understand.
Best regards
Ed J Szalajeski |
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