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Freelancers: what are you shooting?
Alan Rogers, Photographer
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Carbondale | IL | USA | Posted: 5:02 PM on 05.15.06 |
->> I just finished school and am planning to freelance while I search for a staff position.
I know the best money is in weddings and commercial assignments (I searched previous threads already, thank you), but I'm wondering how many freelancers out there shoot only editorial assignments. Is it practical focus solely on sports and general news?
I'm not trying to get rich, just pay the bills until I find something more permanent. The way I look at it, putting my energy into editorial work will bolster my portfolio and give me an edge in the job market that photographing weddings, etc. would not. Any thoughts?
Thanks. |
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andrew wilz, Photographer
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Aspen | CO | usa | Posted: 6:58 PM on 05.15.06 |
->> freelance editorial is kinda brutal... unless you're a regular contributor to a bunch of rags.... Sports Illustrated, National Geographic etc... are $$$... but competition is stiff, and you're submitting stuff along with some of the best photogs in the world (best known at least...). There's MANY more photogs who frequent this site who can enlighten you with a better educated response than i can relative to your question... but my personal experience is that it's better to go the route of Commercial gigs, as opposed to editorial... (unless it's HIGH-Profile).
ummmmm.... i don't know if this helps or not... |
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Marcus Yam, Student/Intern
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Buffalo | NY | USA | Posted: 7:31 PM on 05.15.06 |
| ->> I don't know much as I'm coming out of school... but from all the advice that's been given to me, and from a personal experience from editorial freelance: It's brutal. It'll help you pay the bills, but you'll live scarcely. If you want something that would pay the bills and ensure a somewhat comfortable life while looking for more of a permanent position, the commercial gigs are the way to go. Hope this even helps. |
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Jeff Stanton, Photographer
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Tucson | Az | USA | Posted: 7:54 PM on 05.15.06 |
->> Seriously, if you are looking for a straight up answer, you will probably make more money waiting tables at Denny's.
Besides the competition being keen from other great shooters, lots of folks have digital cameras. People can check their results immediately and try again until they get what they believe is an acceptable shot. Obviously there are exceptions.
I know plenty of folks here will argue who am I to trample on your dream. There isn't a thing wrong with having dreams. Sometimes they come true.
The simple reality is dreams don't keep the bill collectors from harrassing you, nor do they pay the rent and buy groceries. I would definitely get myself on firm footing with employment that will keep you in good graces with your day-to-day living expenses and at the same time you can pursue some freelance work. It will at least provide you with an overall view of what it will take to succeed and it will realistically provide you with the costs associated with freelancing. |
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Steven E. Frischling, Photographer
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New England | | USA | Posted: 8:46 PM on 05.15.06 |
->> I spent years supporting my family shooting editorial and sports. After paying for my wife, daughter, daughter's day care and my wife's college tuition shooting news/sports (about 50% of my income was NCAA and pro sports) I left freelancing to return to a staff job as a Dir of Photo.
Once I decided to leave my job as a DOP to return to freelancing I heavily explored my editorial options and decided the real money was in corporate and wedding work.
I mocked weddings for many years until I realized I could shoot weddings the way I wanted to. I started to approach weddings like an editorial gig and found brides would pay me 3x my typical corporate day rate to do less work.
I found corporate work was often a 1/3 of working time to make 2x or 3x the standard editorial day rates I was making.
Income is a hard number, you have to make a certain amount of money to survive, and often editorial freelance these days can't compete. |
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Pete Lorence, Photographer
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Loughborough | Leicestershire | UK | Posted: 9:16 PM on 05.15.06 |
| ->> I shoot a variety of things to pay my way through uni; the weekends are reserved for shooting editorial stuff i.e. sports, the rest of the time I spend at uni and shooting corporate stuff. I'd love to just shoot sports, but I have to diversify and shoot whatever comes my way as the editorial stuff that I get just isn't quite enough for my liking and long term future. |
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Rodrigo Pena, Photographer
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Palm Desert | CA | USA | Posted: 12:16 AM on 05.16.06 |
->> Hi Alan, I'm glad to hear that you have finished school and are looking for a staff job. I don't know a lot about your past. For instance have you interned anywhere? Sometimes internships are great networking tools. I got an internship many years ago at a semi-weekly (published 2x per week) and although it didn't lead to my first job, the editor/owner of the paper said that he would hire me if he had an opening. Sometimes getting a lab tech position can lead to a job opening. I had a friend who was WAY over qualified to be a lab tech, but did it knowing that he would eventually get a staff position at the paper. He was right. He did his lab tech duties, but was so proficient, that he was often given assignments to shoot instead of lab work. He later got the full-time staff job. I've met and worked with many freelancers and most of them have full-time jobs besides freelancing. One was working as a part-time fire fighter.
Freelancing won't pay the bills, but I recommend doing it if possible so that you can sharpen your skills while you conduct your job search. If your skills are already sharp, you just may land the full-time job at the places where you freelance. |
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Michael Proebsting, Photographer
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Barrington | IL | USA | Posted: 9:19 AM on 05.16.06 |
| ->> Kids action sports. I know an increasing number of guys who previously shot only pro sports (including myself) sick of the undercutting, poor pay, slow pay, travel, restrictions on marketing ect., that is associated with today's economic climate for making a living shooting pro sports. They are all seeing the light and changing their business models to shoot kids action sports. If done properly, you can make great money, as the costs are low, and the profit margin is high, and it is a recession proof business. An extra benefit is that Getty does not have a nationwide exclusive for this, at least for now. |
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Robb Long, Photographer
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Northfield | MN | USA | Posted: 9:43 AM on 05.16.06 |
->> If you want to make some good cash and if you have lighting experience with power packs, loading film, digital software like Phase One and Leaf then I would consider assisting a commercial photog for a while. I know that I pay my assistants $175-$250 a day depending on experience.
After you assist for a while then you will meet lots of peoople you might eventually get your foot in the door with a possible assignment.
Commercial work for advertising can pay anywhere from $1500 a day to $25,000 a day.
Also, you can't beat the experience of working with a commercial photog, you will learn a ton about lighting and studio stuff that can play a role in working full time at a paper when shooting special sections or illustrations.
Thats my two cents,
Robb |
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Robb Long, Photographer
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Northfield | MN | USA | Posted: 9:46 AM on 05.16.06 |
->> Michael,
you also hit the nail on the head, kids action sports is awesome. You take a bunch of photos, stick them online and watch the cash roll in, its pretty awesome.
Robb |
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Bert Entwistle, Photographer
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Colorado Springs | CO | USA | Posted: 11:44 AM on 05.16.06 |
->> Alan,
Of all the types of work that I do, I like freelance editorial the best. I meet many great people and still love seeing my work in print.
That being said, it's a great way to go broke. I feel you have to combine it with other work to make it worthwhile. The ideas on kids sports and weddings are dead on as good ways to make better money.
Another thing I think is that you should really look at writing the piece that you are shooting. You are already there and you are getting the story in pictures, you might as well try and write it too. I work for several mags and make more for the text than I do for the photos. I think the way things are now, you need to expand your skills to cover all the angles possible.
Just my thoughts,
bert |
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Jeff Stanton, Photographer
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Tucson | Az | USA | Posted: 11:56 AM on 05.16.06 |
->> Robb and Michael, I don't know how long each of you have been members of SS. There are been a number of threads on shooting youth sports. I want to first put a positive spin on this by stating there are several SS members who do this very successfully and are good business models for the rest of us to observe and admire. Doing your reaseach will pay dividends.
With that said, this is not a business where you can show up, shoot, put the images online and watch the profits roll in. In our post 9/11 world and with Internet preditors, every parent, every league, every school is on the lookout for shady characters and some of these leagues have rules for the rules.
Most, if not all of the big events, contract a photographer or a company to do the work. You, as a parent, can show up and shoot your kid in action, but you as a businessman will most likely run into some problems trying to market images.
Some photographers have been threatened with legal action for putting images online of 7-8 year olds. Whether it's just smoke and mirrors, I don't know. I would hate to find out the hard way.
It seems as if there are restrictions everywhere you go. Youth sports are no different. Oh yeah, I forgot, a lot of these leagues want a cut of your profits in exchange for the exclusive right to shoot their kids! This is where saavy business sense is required to ensure you have something left in your pocket after all is said and done.
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Michael Proebsting, Photographer
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Barrington | IL | USA | Posted: 12:20 PM on 05.16.06 |
| ->> I don't put images online, nor do I think that is the best way to market the images. All of the leagues I deal with have us set up 10'x10' tents with the images, where the parents have to walk by our tent for their kids game. Yes it takes time to shoot, but when the 4"x6" cost .16 cents to print, and you sell them all day long for $8.00ea., for every (1) you sell, that pays for the next (50). Then you have enlargements, custom framing ect., if you can shoot, deal with people, and give them quality service you will make $$$. |
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Landon Finch, Photographer
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Colorado Springs | CO | USA | Posted: 12:42 PM on 05.16.06 |
->> Alan,
Whatever you do, post some galleries here on SS.com and get a website going for yourself so people can see your work.
(Maybe you have a website, but it's not listed on your SS.com page.) |
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Marie Hughes, Photographer
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Fremont | CA | USA | Posted: 12:44 PM on 05.16.06 |
->> The only way that selling 1 4x6 at $8 will pay for the next 50 4x6 prints is if you don't count the following costs:
1) Paying the photographers
2) Paying the booth staff
3) Paying a kickback to the host
4) Paying your health and life insurance
5) Paying your equipment insurance
6) Paying for your camera(s), lenses, and other equipment
7) Paying the cost of making signs and flyers to get people to your booth
and so forth and so on
These are real costs and I'm convinced after a year of doing youth sports that most of my colleagues are not really making any money but just think they are because they have another source of income that actually pays their living expenses. The ones who do make money hustle like crazy and are working every single weekend, 52 weeks a year. They are also very picky about what kinds of jobs they pick up and will turn down events with too low a head count or where having more heads means hiring more staff (so that the profit for 600 heads is the same as for 100 heads).
As for selling online, I make as much in gross sales each year selling online as I do at about 2 events so it does add to the bottom line and the cost is negligible as I would have a web site anyway. But I couldn't live off those sales and most people I know who do this full-time for a living can't generate enough sales on the web to live off of either. |
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Alan Rogers, Photographer
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Carbondale | IL | USA | Posted: 12:56 PM on 05.16.06 |
->> Thanks for your input, everyone. I think the consensus is that editorial work too unstabe financially to start burning bridges with wedding and commercial clients. I suppose I'm too young to say "no" when someone offers me money to do what I love.
Rodrigo: I haven't interned anywhere yet (big mistake) but am working on getting one for the fall, unless a job comes along first.
Landon: One of the benefits of not having a job is I now have time to build my website! For the time being I'm referring people to my SS portfolio gallery.
Sor far, I've contacted editors at my local papers and should hopefully be able to get a couple assignments per week that way. And I'm going to start looking for other types of assignments as well.
Thanks again, guys, I'll let you know where I wind up. |
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George Bridges, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Washington | DC | USA | Posted: 1:27 PM on 05.16.06 |
->> Alan,
I'll be the voice on the other side here:
You can make editorial work pay off, depending on a lot of factors.
The main thing is where you live. Is there a lot of daily editorial work available? In cities like here in DC, or NY or LA there is plenty of daily editorial work and a freelancer can work as much as they want. In a smaller city the opportunity will just not be there.
Yes it doesn't pay as well, but if you shoot a lot of editorial and mix it in with the occasional wedding or corporate gig then you can get by pretty well. At least until you find full-time employment.
There are lots of freelancers who make it only on editorial work and love it and make decent livings. However, they are the ones in major cities and will do the corporate gig every now and then.
Day rates for editorial are not as good as corporate and not as good as weddings, but if it is work you love doing you can get by. You're not going to get rich and retire early, but you can pull in an income for a decent standard of living.
For the almost 10 years I freelanced, I did primarily editorial work with a corporate thing thrown in every now and then. When I first started it was scraping by, but as I got my foot in the door and clients knew my work things picked up. When I moved to DC there were times where it was definitely a feast (such as election years) and I could work 20+ days in a row -- all editorial.
If you are looking at a newspaper photojournalism career than you really want to do editorial freelance. Yes you can make good money shooting youth sport, etc, but when you apply for that full-time job at a metro daily you had better have more than Dixie League baseball. You need the news images, the environmental portraits of businessmen, the studio-creativity -- along with the good action. |
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Michael Proebsting, Photographer
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Barrington | IL | USA | Posted: 1:55 PM on 05.16.06 |
| ->> OK, because I was expecting the naysayers, aka Marie Hughes, here is a breakdown of my last job. 20 hours photographing (10) myself, (10) a photographer I paid $25/hr. ($250.00) 3000 prints at .16 cents a piece, ($480.00) cost to pay for proof books to be stuffed, and help at the proof book table ($400.00) Cost of reprints and frames for custom framed orders, ($300.00). Gross sales $9,500.00. Deduct above expenses of $1,430.00 and you arrive at a profit of $8,070. Multiply this by 15 events a year and tell me you are not making $$$. Book more events and you are making even more. This does not include the smaller jobs that are added in. I don't do these jobs in low income areas, I do them where there is plenty of disposable income. Even after deducting Maries expenses 3-7 it still is lucrative. I've also seen plenty of people fail with the youth sports. Poor marketing, poor images, poor customer service, and basic overall poor planning on the photographers part are usually to blame. As for your assertion that "After a year most of my colleagues are not making any real money", well there probably is a reason for it. I don't do this part time, it is my full time job, and is treated as such, not something I do recreationally. You bet, I do pick and choose the jobs I do, it's called smart business. It takes a committment that most people don't have to be successfull at this, sorry to be blunt but it also takes more than one year for nearly all business to get up and running. |
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Alan Rogers, Photographer
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Carbondale | IL | USA | Posted: 2:03 PM on 05.16.06 |
->> Thanks for the helpful comments, George.
And thanks for all the photos of yours I pulled off the KRT wire for my student paper :-) |
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Robb Long, Photographer
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Northfield | MN | USA | Posted: 2:42 PM on 05.16.06 |
->> Jeff,
Stop taking things so literally.
Robb |
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Jeff Stanton, Photographer
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Tucson | Az | USA | Posted: 2:54 PM on 05.16.06 |
->> Robb ...
Alan asked a question and as SS members, we owe him an honest answer, literal or otherwise. |
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Robb Long, Photographer
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Northfield | MN | USA | Posted: 3:01 PM on 05.16.06 |
->> Jeff,
you are so right man...
Robb |
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David Harpe, Photographer
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Louisville | KY | USA | Posted: 5:59 PM on 05.16.06 |
->> In most markets it is impractical to think you can make a living just shooting editorial on a freelance basis, particularly just starting out. If you are in a hot market, are hooked up with a bunch of editors, and your stuff is knock-your-socks-off amazing, you probably can make a living at it. It all depends on your particular situation.
I have a studio and shoot commercial work in addition to my editorial stuff. The commercial work pays the bills. An example...I recently did five quick head shots for a local company. Very basic stuff - grey seamless and a couple of lights. Total time spent including post production was about an hour.
The amount of money I was paid for those head shots was equivalent to THREE two-hour assignments at the local paper. |
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Steven E. Frischling, Photographer
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New England | | USA | Posted: 7:21 PM on 05.16.06 |
->> George:
Remind me to forward your post to my wife.......... |
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Peter Hoffman, Student/Intern, Photo Editor
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Naperville | IL | U.S. | Posted: 2:34 PM on 06.26.06 |
->> I'm in the same boat as Allen, though I graduate at the end of the summer. I'm trying hard to get an internship just for more experience and then I will go from there. I expect it to be tough starting out but I will make it work, my portfolio is a bit limited because work as a photo-editor will limit your shooting. I'm still not sure if taking the photo editor decision was a good decision, because I do want to shoot in the end.
I have to live with my parents for a little while probably, but that's ok.
I didn't start shooting seriously till about 1.5 years ago...before that I was involved with photography but I was also involved with not knowing what I wanted to do and also just enjoying college...but when I got bit, I got bit.
This is a bit of an aside, but have you thought about grad school? I myself think I am going to try to go for the 2007 year. Some people will tell you its a waste, and for this industry it certainly isn't necessary, but just wondering if you had thought about it. I know I have my reasons for wanting to attend.
Allen good luck to you I'd like to hear how you are doing...as I'm in the same boat as you. |
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Seh Suan Ngoh, Photographer
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Singapore | SG | Singapore | Posted: 11:15 PM on 06.26.06 |
->> I would have wanted to shoot solely sports, but a big headache stems from the fact I don't have a 300 nor 400mm lens. Gave me endless stress through the previous week. May be better off for the shorter reach kind of sports though with my 70-200.
But one thing that I'm beginning to open to - weddings. Surprisingly enough, marrying couples are pretty keen to blow QUITE a few grand on a weekend to mark the nuptials. I'm already telling myself to head out, hitch up with an accomplished wedding photographer, go out and experiment and see what I can come up with. Done it only once so far, but with ho-hum results. Not the photographer's fault... but more so I wasn't too ready to shoot and wasn't used to the necessary "protocol shots" as they were called. Very enriching experience. |
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Steven E. Frischling, Photographer
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New England | | USA | Posted: 11:17 PM on 06.26.06 |
->> Peter:
Grad school?
I knew I missed something by not getting past a semester of college (then being a staffer, chief, photo editor and DOP).
No seriously, the industry has changed heavily since I starting working 40+hrs a week at it around 15 years ago. Many of the current jobs require not only a college degree, but state they prefer a higher degree (often Sr PE and DOP jobs). As much as I hate desks, there seems to be more job security in PE and DOP jobs.
If you are serious about advancing through staff positions Grad School is an excellent route to investigate. |
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Andrew Wheeler, Photographer
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Capitola | CA | USA | Posted: 11:22 PM on 06.26.06 |
->> Motorcycle Racing (everywhere on the planet - when someone ships me there)
That's all I do....
(aside from equine work - portraiture)
Andrew
http://www.automotophoto.com |
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Kat Woronowicz, Photographer
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Oceanside | CA | USA | Posted: 4:51 AM on 07.19.06 |
->> Saturated markets? I disagree. There is plenty of work out there for everyone. The worst part is negativity amongst other photographers. We can be our own worst enemies. I'm concerned about the derogatory feel that "freelance" has. I would - and have turned down staff jobs. Job security? Does that even exsist anymore?
Freelance is where it's at!
After a bad experience starting out on staff at a community paper three years ago, I've been freelancing ever since - and loving it! I get to work with a variety of great clients, keep my copyright and be my own boss.
I shoot mostly editorial general assignments, with a few commerical gigs thrown into the mix. I work my butt off, but I get to do what I love every day - and I am so greatful for that.
Sure, sometimes it's scary not knowing what you will be shooting tomorrow, let alone next month. I guess you have to have a certain personality for it - it's not for everyone. I completely agree with George Bridges' comment above. I also think it's important to have an good attitude about it - just keep making great photos, and the money thing will come.
Happy Shooting!
Kat |
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Daniel Wilkinson, Photographer
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Chennai | Tamil Nadu | India | Posted: 2:51 PM on 07.20.06 |
| ->> Right before I graduated I started utahphotoassistant.com. When photographers from outside of Utah and also within, were looking for a photo assistant, my name came up first. I had more work than I could handle. I also found S.L.C top commerical photographers and begged them to allow me to show them what I had. After assisting these great photographers for 3 years I took the best from each photographer and learned a solid business model. Now I'm sitting in Southern India living a dream. begging is not beneath me. Hard work and determinations are the key.. |
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Al Santos, Photographer
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Silver Spring | MD | USA | Posted: 3:26 PM on 07.20.06 |
->> I did not start out wanting to be a wedding photographer but after my first big wedding gig a month ago, I’m hooked. This week alone I confirmed two wedding gigs for the month of September. The money is definitely great and will come in handy since I am currently doing my kitchen renovation.
Of course, I would rather do sports. But right now, wedding is where can make the most money.
Best of luck to you, Alan. |
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