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|| SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board
My Current Interns
Jeremy Harmon, Photographer
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Salt Lake City | UT | USA | Posted: 6:00 PM on 04.11.06 |
->> I have two interns right now.
The one who has been here the longest shot some photos today of a police officer covering a television shooters lens at a gay rights demonstration at BYU. I'm interested to see how this one unfolds.
Later in the day my newest intern told me she has never developed a roll of film in her life. She doesn't know how to do it. Wow. |
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Stew Milne, Photographer
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Providence | RI | USA | Posted: 6:25 PM on 04.11.06 |
| ->> What are they teaching these kids in college now? Basic knowledge of film is a must, even if they professional photography world is mostly digital. Knowing how dilm works, helps you make better digital images. |
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Jon Austria, Photographer
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Roseburg | OR | USA | Posted: 6:41 PM on 04.11.06 |
->> i stopped using film after my first year at brooks that was the end of 2003, after that i was full on digital. In fact even when i was shooting film, i'd just send it in to the local labs. My whole school department went full digital in the first quarter of 2004. I wouldn't be surprised if the kids coming in PJ school now, have never develop film nor used it for an assignment.
The last time i used film (develop, print, burn and dodge) was over a year ago, for a Zone Class. It was an elective, and i was the only photojay student in the class, everyone else was landscape, fashion, and box photographers. it was a cool class, nice to see how things were done in the old days, but i don't see how it helps me today. (chimpin makes life easy) But i'd say it's good to have this skill when its time for me to go freelance with for creative control.
Don't blame the schools and students blame better technology. |
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Kevin German, Photographer
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Sacramento | CA | USA | Posted: 7:10 PM on 04.11.06 |
->> I didn't go to a photo school so I had to learn a lot of stuff myself. For the past few years, I've been experimenting with as many cameras and films as I can get my hands on ... even antique cameras. I think the blame should fall on the individual person. If you're a photographer and you are serious at developing your mind as such, then learn the history of this business and go out and experiment. Its fun as hell and you'll learn a ton. Just my two cents.
kg |
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Maxwell Yedor, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Oxnard | CA | USA | Posted: 7:13 PM on 04.11.06 |
->> I'm a current Brooks student and Jon is absolutley correct. Most of my class-mates have no idea how to load, develop, and print from film. I know some basic film developing from my high school classes, but Brooks is completly digital these days. I really mis film, but for the forseable future I will not have a chance to use it. The campus that the PJ program (now they call it VJ) is held on doesn't have a darkroom, the nearest Brooks darkroom is 40+ miles away
Jeremy, you may want to specify that film experiance is a must in your next search for interns, as the average PJ student coming out of college will have no clue about the stuff. |
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Wendi Kaminski, Photographer, Assistant
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La Mirada | CA | USA | Posted: 7:36 PM on 04.11.06 |
| ->> When I started at Brooks, I was surprised to find out they are totally digital too. I miss the days of the old dark smelly darkroom......the smell of chemicals permanently on my hands for weeks...clothes marred by the splash of developer... The good ol' days. |
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Marie Hughes, Photographer
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Fremont | CA | USA | Posted: 7:59 PM on 04.11.06 |
->> I'm almost 50 and I've never developed a roll of film either. Of course I've used film... I got my first camera when I was 8 and there was no digital back then (and not much color -- at least not that a kid could afford on a 50 cent a week allowance.) ;)
I've just never had any desire to get into the chemical end of it in any hands-on way and never had a need to. |
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Matthew Rosenberg, Photographer
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Philadelphia | PA | United States | Posted: 11:51 PM on 04.11.06 |
| ->> I feel very fortunate to have been taught all the old school techniques. I am a 2003 grad from RIT and we learned 4x5 and zone system. I think these are invaluable tools that apply to today's digital world. Digital can be very unforgiving. Even with raw files digital cameras have a very finite range of tones they can handle. Unlike film there is no soft "toe" or roll-off. Once you have reached the limit it cuts off. From what I understand digital cameras capture only 256 levels luminosity. I thought my teachers were all nuts when they had us measuring density levels of 4x5 film. Photoshop is grounded in traditional photography. The curves palette looks very similar to the logarithmic graphs I had to plot of film densities. The point of this long winded post is that there are a lot of carry overs from film present in todays technology and an understanding of that can help a lot. |
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Jeremy Harmon, Photographer
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Salt Lake City | UT | USA | Posted: 11:53 PM on 04.11.06 |
->> I'm not going to require interns to have experience with film. That would be like telling interns in the film days that they had to know how to make woodcuts.
I was just surprised that she had never had a need to do it. I think I must have stared at her in disbelief for a good five minutes. Her high school and college classes were all digital. I wish more students were learning on film because I believe you learn more about photography when you can't chimp. When I was making the switch to digital, I was told "If you can reasonably do it in the darkroom, you can do it in Photoshop." That's how Photoshop ethics was taught to me. If a student has never used a darkroom, I have to come up with a new way to explain that.
Kevin,
I don't think "blame" is the right word. The fact of the matter is that some people may not see the need. I'm glad I learned photography in a darkroom, but I guess that isn't necessary anymore.
Wendi,
I miss it too. I was going through some old boxes the other day and found a bunch of Acufine that I never mixed. |
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Michael Fischer, Photographer
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Spencer | Ia | USA | Posted: 12:39 AM on 04.12.06 |
->> Funny how the stuff we cursed when we were on deadline is the same stuff we miss in the age of digital.
Have to know how to process film and make a print in this day and age? No, you don't. But it sure speaks volume if a young person comes to you that knows HOW to do it, doesn't it?
Michael |
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Ric Tapia, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Santa Barbara | CA | USA | Posted: 12:57 AM on 04.12.06 |
->> Jon and Kevin are right that the "VJ" program at Brooks does not use film but i am in the "Still" program at Brooks and for the first year it is all film, after that it is up to the photographer what they want to shoot. i have learned a lot of darkroom stuff but i feel it is a waste of my time because in four months i will be using digital and will never pick up a film camera again.
Ric |
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Max Gersh, Student/Intern
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Louisville | KY | USA | Posted: 1:45 AM on 04.12.06 |
->> Matthew,
I'm right there beside you. I am in school at Webster University and I am taking tons of film courses. One I took last semester was photo science. We had to do tests to determine the actual speed of the film in our specific cameras and also plot all the denisty levels. The zone system was a pain to relate to, but once you get it down, it can really help. I think to understand how anything works, you have to go to its roots. I am shocked that photo schools are just teaching digital in the photo-j dpeartment. I dont think someone who wants to be a serious photographer should pick up a digital camera without ever using a fully manual film camera such as the Pentax K1000. Learn the workings of it. Understand what each function does. Learn what a fraction stop is. Then, once you've experimented pressing the shutter release 36 times, go into a dark room, and DEVELOP IT! Film photography after all is what influenced digital. You are learning history, except it's hands on! Personally, I have my own darkroom. No matter how much easier it is with digital, I still love sitting in my darkroom for hours, watching the silver halides do their thing.
-Max- |
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Alan Rogers, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Carbondale | IL | USA | Posted: 2:10 AM on 04.12.06 |
| ->> I taught myself photography on film, and like to think that I understand the technical aspects pretty well. I've noticed that younger shooters at my school who learned on digital have a harder time articulating how they created images. When you can just chimp until it looks right there's little incentive to understand the process, and if you don't understand the tools you are working with you are not going to produce good images. |
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Ron Hawkes, Photographer
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Camden | ME | USA | Posted: 6:21 AM on 04.12.06 |
->> I have never worked in a darkroom either as I just never had the desire to learn that end of it.
My daughter goes to school at Colby-Sawyer in New Hampshire and is majoring in art education with a concentration in Photography and she will be doing her second year of darkroom next year as a senior. She tells me she is glad she has learned to do it and cannot wait for next year to learn some advanced darkroom technique.
So some schools are still teaching it and some young photographers are still interested in the process.
Jeremy, glad to here you don't hold the lack of knowledge against new interns, but I understand how someone that learned in the darkroom would be shocked to know someone had never shot film before let alone develop it.
It is kind of like talking to a young person today and saying I have that record instead of saying CD and they look at you like you are some kind of alien or something. Times have changed
Ron |
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Max Gersh, Student/Intern
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Louisville | KY | USA | Posted: 9:01 AM on 04.12.06 |
->> Ron,
I agree that things have changed. I have to disagree with you with the thought on the record. It is not the same. I think most kids my age have looked through our parents record collection. Also, I think the proper comparison would be an audio production student or professional not knowing the process of using wax cylinders to make castings for future reproduction. I consider myself lucky to have been studying the film process since my freshman year of highschool. I think anyone that takes photography seriously should study the old processes to learn more. There are always things to learn in the future but the pasts knowledge is limited. We should take every opertunity to learn as much as possible to better ourselves.
-Max- |
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Jeff Kiely, Photographer
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Tolland | CT | USA | Posted: 9:14 AM on 04.12.06 |
| ->> I was talking with a young photog awhile ago about the pre-digital days and she couldn't conceive trying to get id's without being able to chimp. |
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Steven E. Frischling, Photographer
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New England | | USA | Posted: 9:44 AM on 04.12.06 |
->> Having souped film in my mother's sink as a kid, in the back of my truck on deadlines, in the bathrooms of arenas, in my own sink in my house (well that was for fun).....and having worked for almost a year hand printing custom CibaChrome* prints for a pro lab I can say this.....I don't miss the dark room.
I miss black and white film, I miss souping B&W film, I don't miss printing it (probably why we have neg scanners).
I do think students, and newer photogs, are missing something by not knowing the joys of film, the pains of souping film on a deadline in the back of a truck, and having to edit and scan on deadline. But I also think students should have to go ut and use a Kodak NC2000c or Kodak DCS3 for a week or two before picking up a 1DMkIIN or D2x.
* How many of you even remember what a CibaChrome print is? How many remember how hard it was to hand print a CibaChrome?
....and lastly....why do I keep feeling like an old relic at 30 when these conversations come up? |
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Adam Hemphill, Photographer, Student/Intern
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Willimantic | CT | US | Posted: 9:55 AM on 04.12.06 |
| ->> Though I came from film, I hadn't done anything with it in several years until recently when a friend and I decided to develop several rolls we had stashed in random places. It was a lot of fun and I'm now planning to get my hands on a film camera (other than a Holga) so I can take advantage of a bunch of unused Tri-X, Ilford paper in all sizes, and a nice Leitz enlarger. While I've come to love digital in its own right, I think the use of film is a process that everyone should at least know about. |
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Rob Mattson, Photographer
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Sarasota | FL | USA | Posted: 10:38 AM on 04.12.06 |
| ->> So what happened with the police-camera-covering incident? |
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Jeremy Harmon, Photographer
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Salt Lake City | UT | USA | Posted: 12:41 PM on 04.12.06 |
->> Rob,
I don't know yet. I'm hoping to hear something about it today.
Frischling,
Funny you mention CibaChrome. I told this intern about making prints from slides and what a long long tedious process that was. 45 minutes to an hour for a test strip. That was sort of fun. |
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John Reed, Photographer
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Montgomery | AL | USA | Posted: 9:17 PM on 04.13.06 |
->> Oh, how I miss the sting of fixer when I have a cut on my finger, HC-110 for push processing film, and, not to mention, the 3-step process (1 minute between cycles) for transmitting a color picture on the old AP drum.
I guess I'm way over the hill at 45. |
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Sam Santilli, Photographer
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Philippi | WV | USA | Posted: 12:04 PM on 04.14.06 |
->> I am sure a conversation in 1920 mirrored closely to Jeremy's with his intern: "What, you do not know how to crank a Model T? You youngins in that damn electronic starter!"
We are on the cusp of a brave new world, and this is the convergence of the two worlds. Wonder what comes after digital? |
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PF Bentley, Photographer
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Ventura | CA | USA | Posted: 1:08 PM on 04.14.06 |
->> I'm 53 years old and do not miss film one bit.
The chemicals on my hands and clothes along with inhaling the fumes in a darkened room for many years do not bring back fond memories.
I did not enjoy going to an airport in a Third World country to ask some kind soul to take my film pouch to NY, where it would be hopefully picked up by a courier from TIME.
Or calling a courier while on the campaign and arranging for them to be on a certain street corner as the motorcade whizzed by. God, I got good at tossing the packet out of moving vehicles.
Film is dead. Get over it.
Photojournalism is so much more pleasant these days.
Live from the front lines of Visual Journalism education,
PF |
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Joshua Brown, Photographer
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Clyde | NC | USA | Posted: 9:55 PM on 04.14.06 |
| ->> I think that learning on film has provided me with benifits that would have been harder to learn on digital. However, shooting digital on full manual mode and using a light meter to determine proper exposure is very comparable to shooting with a K1000. I think that classes should intergrate both film and digital so students can learn the best of both worlds. Besides, you never know when digital will fail. The best advice I've ever heard is "they pay me to make images, not excuses." Understanding how to shoot and print film is a wonderful benifit to have and is benificial. |
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Jon Austria, Photographer
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Roseburg | OR | USA | Posted: 10:49 PM on 04.14.06 |
| ->> the old man said it! "PF, Doesn't do old tech" |
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