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Who phired on Phil at Augusta?
Chris Condon, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Ponte Vedra Bch | FL | USA | Posted: 12:21 PM on 04.11.06 |
->> OK, sorry for that... Couldn't resist!
Since I didn't make it to Augusta this year, I'm really curious to find out who hammered their motor on Phil Sunday morning. The reports I've seen said they closed off the tower at 18 tee after no one admitted or pointed out the offender. I'm surprised they didn't pull credentials.
Wonder if it will lead to more long-term restrictions at Augusta like eliminating remotes.
We keep giving them reasons, and they keep taking away access... |
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Damon Tarver, Photographer
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San Jose | CA | USA | Posted: 6:27 PM on 04.11.06 |
| ->> Seems like it is almost like stealing the Mona Lisa.... You have something no one else has, but the second you try to sell it...... (or publish it in this case) |
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Peter Taylor, Photographer, Photo Editor
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NYC, Washington | DC | | Posted: 7:32 PM on 04.11.06 |
->> i once, during a first round golf tourney, fired on lee trevino while using a wide angle lens while he hit out of the woods. he had seen me set up and ackowleged me and nodded like i was in an ok place. then he took a practice stroke and i fired away and it was all cool and he took another practice stroke and i fired away, except it wasn't a practice stroke! it was his regular stroke. boy was he mad! turned and yelled at me what in the hell did i think i was doing, etc. then he turned to the gallery and said what is this guy a hockey photographer? i took that as my clue to get the hell out of there and gathered up my 400 and beat it as fast as i could with him yelling at me as i ran! it is funny now, but i was terrifed of getting tossed for a few holes until i could blend in. the picture was decent.
pt |
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Michael McNamara, Photo Editor, Photographer
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St Louis | MO | USA | Posted: 8:08 PM on 04.11.06 |
| ->> Seems like it was somebody trying to get their own version of Fred Vuich's "Masterpiece" SI cover. Too bad he shot it with a near-silent rangefinder that doesn't have a motor drive. |
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Lucas Jackson, Photographer
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Los Angeles | CA | USA | Posted: 9:38 PM on 04.11.06 |
| ->> I bet from that distance you could get away with a 5D, that is a quiet camera compared to the MKII. |
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Donald Miralle, Photographer
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Los Angeles | CA | USA | Posted: 10:19 PM on 04.11.06 |
->> I just got back from Augusta yesterday, and I was on the 17th green (about 30 ft away) when the incident happened. The worse part about it was Jim "Bones" McKay, Phil's caddie, specifically asked all the photographers in the 18th tee box tower to not fire until impact. The photographer in question hammered it at the top of the backswing, and Phil immediately heard it and luckily did not hit a bad shot. Bones erupted and actually pointed out the photographer and said "I know it was you!"
Notwithstanding if it was an accident or not, the unfortunate part of all of this was the photographer never admitted or apologized for his actions. No one ratted him out either, even though it was fairly obvious who it was. Because of this the tower was closed for the rest of the tournament for EVERYONE and it is probably lost for all future tournaments. |
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Chris Condon, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Ponte Vedra Bch | FL | USA | Posted: 7:29 AM on 04.12.06 |
->> Thanks Donald... I figured it would be something like that. I can't believe that someone would pull a move like that after Bones specifically warned them not to fire...I'm guessing that if they started pulling credentials, the others in the tower wouldn't have kept silent!
I don't know who else was there, and I don't want to judge a situation that I didn't see, but I don't get it... Sticking together over something like rights-grabbing is one thing, but letting someone get away with something that further damages our image and will ultimately make it even more difficult to cover one of the most challenging events in sports doesn't help anyone! (Sorry for the run-on sentence) Hopefully Augusta won't kill that tower for next year.
There are times when experienced golf shooters can get away with a backswing shot. The sad part is that people see those images and think they can do it too.
There are many factors that go into that decision, lens length, ambient noise, distance from the player, silent shutter etc. "One at the top" is one of the most dangerous shots to try in our sport because of the potential distraction to the golfer, and the reaction they'll have if they hear it! |
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Alex Menendez, Photographer
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Orlando | FL | USA | Posted: 9:24 AM on 04.12.06 |
| ->> I totally agree with all of the above comments so don't start rolling your eyes at the next few sentences, OKAY?! I have shot PGA and MLB and NFL and have yet to see printed on paper-the RULES of filming each specific event. I know from experience ( As do most professionsls) that you can't shoot a football game (NCAA or NFL) from anywhere between the 25 yard lines and in some instances you can't even stand, in baseball, you don't go onto the field and in golf, you definately wait until the swinger connects with the ball, but how is a FIRST TIME shooter to know this without written instructions? I just wonder if the credential grantor was to make a shooter sign a form explicitly outlining the shooting rules, the common mistakes might not occur. I have seen beginners use flash when they weren't suppose to, bump others out of the way for the shot and even run onto the court as the buzzer goes off, hoping to get a cool shot for their portfolio. Should the intructors at schools explain this , their montors or the others on the sidelines? I don't know whether the Guilty party at the PGA was a pro shooter or not but he/she should have known better, you don't shoot until you scoope out the area and watch the other photogs and seen how things work. I know a lot of younger, beginner shooters are reading this and we should try to explain why this is bad and how one unknowing dope can screw it up for the rest of us. Just a thought. |
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Primoz Jeroncic, Photographer
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Kranj | SI | Slovenia | Posted: 9:46 AM on 04.12.06 |
| ->> Ok this is probably a bit off topic, but still... I never shoot golf before, so all this "distraction for players" sounds a bit strange to me. Does shutter release really make so much noise to distract player? And we are talking about outside sport. I really can't imagine perfect silence when being outside and even having few 100 (or even 1000) spectators around, or am I wrong? |
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Michael McNamara, Photo Editor, Photographer
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St Louis | MO | USA | Posted: 10:08 AM on 04.12.06 |
->> Primoz, yes, noise is a big deal at golf. I've only occasionally shot it, but I've played since I was about 7, and any noise when a player is standing over their ball is a definite no-no in golf etiquette. Sure, you have your fair share of ambient noise, but camera shutters are definitely not an expected noise. Like a car horn isn't expected.
A good primer is this piece: http://www.sportsshooter.com/news/826 |
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Mark Cornelison, Photographer
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Lexington | KY | U.S.A. | Posted: 10:16 AM on 04.12.06 |
->> It is ridiculous that a golfer standing over a stationary ball, can't take a little shutter noise when you compare it to baseball player, standing stationary as a 6'2 pitcher throws a very hard ball at him at 100 mph., as someone in the stands is yelling at him about what his mother did last night.
And I don't even like baseball. |
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Paul Kelm, Photographer
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Plzen | Czech Republic | Czech Republic | Posted: 10:25 AM on 04.12.06 |
| ->> Do any sports photographers use "blimps". You know, those sound-deadening camera covers? Seems like that would make a shot like the one that's been discussed possible - and acceptable. |
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George Bridges, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Washington | DC | USA | Posted: 10:28 AM on 04.12.06 |
->> Well, anyone who has done a PGA tournament knows that a pro golf tournament is anything but a truly quiet situation. The worst offenders are people in the luxury suites who ignore the tournament and yap away or a waiter drops a tray or something to that effect.
However, like Michael, having played golf most of my life I can say that, yes, a shutter click can throw you off.
The difference with baseball is that if the batter gets distracted and mis-hits a little bit then he hits a foul ball and gets another shot at it. Also, a golf fairway may only be 25 yards wide at the landing point while at the outfield fence a baseball field is more than 100 yards wide -- plenty of room for error.
If a pro golfer gets distracted and the club face is out of alignment with the ball by just millimeters, when the ball launches off a driver at more than 130 mph it can go way out of line, even out of bounds costing the player at least a stroke more and in the world of pro golf that can mean the difference between an $800,000 payday and $125,000. Not that I would sneeeze at $125,000 but that is a huge difference for someone who is essentially a freelancer. Remember, if a golfer doesn't make the cut he gets no money and he has spent probably $5,000 or more for airfare, hotel, caddie etc.
As the old saying goes, "In golf, you have to play your foul balls."
And a tip for anyone who doesn't cover much golf: not only should you not fire on a golfer's swing, but also turn off the second camera that hangs over your shoulder because the shutter button may hit your hip or elbow and fire unexpectedly. |
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Wesley R. Bush, Photographer
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Nashville | TN | U.S. | Posted: 10:42 AM on 04.12.06 |
| ->> If you're shooting golf, not only do you not fire during a backswing, but you also don't move. Everything comes to a stop within the view of the golfer. If you want think people should be able to make noise like in baseball, shoot baseball. If you want to respect each game for what it is, you follow every written and unwritten rule of it. |
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Rainier Ehrhardt, Photographer
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Birmingham | AL | USA | Posted: 10:54 AM on 04.12.06 |
->> Golf (especially Augusta) is steeped in tradition. Like not being allowed inside the ropes at the Masters.
Now, regardless of whether it really is a distration (it is) for the golfer to hear a shutter while he's over the ball, us as photographers do not need to be the judges of that. It's part of the game, respect that, and work around it. With any sport there are certain written and unwritten rules (etiquette if you will).
Now, having a new photog who has never shot golf before fire away during a backswing at a small event is almost understandable, especially if there are no written rules.
But such an occurance happening at the Masters where it's the best golfers and the most experienced photographers, should never happen.
The first time I was assigned to shoot golf, I did what I normally do when I have to shoot something I've never shot, I looked at what had been done before me, and I educated myself (Darren Carroll's article linked by Michael was great for that).
There's nothing worse than showing up unprepared, right? |
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David Harpe, Photographer
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Louisville | KY | USA | Posted: 11:47 AM on 04.12.06 |
| ->> Since all of the other shots from that hole will be after the swing, won't the offender be "outted" as soon as the pic shows up in public somewhere? |
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Michael McNamara, Photo Editor, Photographer
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St Louis | MO | USA | Posted: 11:50 AM on 04.12.06 |
->> "There's nothing worse than showing up unprepared, right?"
Exactly. And Mark, like it or not, making preventable noise when a golfer is standing over the ball is a no-no, be it pressing your shutter button or slurping your Coke. I don't like that the speed limit where I live is 60mph, but I'm not going to speed, and then when I get caught, say that the law is ridiculous...that drivers in Germany can drive however fast they want. |
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Primoz Jeroncic, Photographer
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Kranj | SI | Slovenia | Posted: 11:56 AM on 04.12.06 |
->> Wesley I didn't mean it this way. It was just a question, since I didn't think it can be so distracting. As I said I never shoot or play golf so... But back in days when I was still in racing xc skiing myself, I know how much I "noticed" surrounding when I was racing. And at least in skiing and at least for myself, I didn't even notice spectators or their cheering and/or yelling when I was in middle of race. So that's reason why I asked this about golf.
Otherwise I completely agree with you. If you are shooting something (or even if you are just spectator) you follow those rules, even if they are not written. So if rule is not to shoot at specific moments, I won't shoot. And this thread is lot of help, if I will be shooting golf in future, because like Rainer said, I check before I go somewhere for first time. And such infos are valuable.
PS: And thanks to Michael and George for explanations :) |
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Wesley R. Bush, Photographer
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Nashville | TN | U.S. | Posted: 12:16 PM on 04.12.06 |
| ->> I wasn't directing my post toward you or anyone else in particular, Primoz. I just know people always compare the concentration in golf to the concentration in other sports. I like how Michael put it though. Good stuff. (I can't hit a ball straight to save my life anyway, so I can't imagine being on the 18th hole of the Masters and hearing a 8fps clicking directly behind me among the silence of a thousand people.) |
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Chris Peterson, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Columbia Falls | MT | USA | Posted: 12:36 PM on 04.12.06 |
| ->> For clarification: I assume you can shoot the guy if you're 50 yards down the fairway with a 600, swinging or not. |
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Vern Verna, Photographer
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Greenville | SC | United States | Posted: 12:44 PM on 04.12.06 |
->> chris, that depends on the situation. if the blimp is overhead and heading into the wind then yes it will drowned out the noise of your camera firing so the golfer wont hear it. it is a feel situation u learn by shooting for a few years when u can get away with it or not.
by the way the guilty party is a shooter from a wire service as i understand it since nobody will say it and he should have known better than firing when he did. |
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Randy Janoski, Photographer
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Washington DC & Nashville | TN | USA | Posted: 1:16 PM on 04.12.06 |
->> Do any sports photographers use "blimps".
Paul, I have used blimps at golf tourneys. They are the same blimps I have for shooting on movie sets. At a golf event they are actually easier to use because of the slower pace and mostly static subjects.
http://www.soundblimp.com/canon.htm |
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Paul Kelm, Photographer
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Plzen | Czech Republic | Czech Republic | Posted: 1:17 PM on 04.12.06 |
->> I don't see an answer to my "blimp" question. Does anyone use the sound-deadening camera cover that theater photographers use known by some as a "blimp". It does a reasonable job of silencing camera noises - to the point that it can be used in a quiet theater.
The thing looks sort of like an underwater camera housing on steroids - and no, let's not change this into a baseball discussion. |
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Randy Janoski, Photographer
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Washington DC & Nashville | TN | USA | Posted: 1:21 PM on 04.12.06 |
| ->> Ahhh Paul...which thread are you reading??? just kidding, read up one. |
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Karl Stolleis, Photographer
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Santa Fe | NM | USA | Posted: 1:28 PM on 04.12.06 |
->> Alex - if you have shot PGA tournaments and not seen, in writing, that you are not allowed to shoot until impact then you have not read the agreement that you sign or the PGA rules. The same set of rules includes the arms length provison from the ropes and a number of others. Not knowing the rules is not an excuse for breaking them.
As for the "blimp" question. A number of shooters over the years, including Darren Carrol have used them on the golf course. The work fine but add to the weight you are already lugging around. |
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Scott Morgan, Photographer
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Burlington | IA | United States | Posted: 1:44 PM on 04.12.06 |
->> About the "blimp": $800 for one of those things? You'd have to be on crack to buy that. Making one out of a pelican case with some foam, a remote trigger, some glass, caulk and good use of a saw would cost less than $100. Sorry, I know it's a bit off topic.
Also, about the shutter click. I've had a PGA golfer tell me what makes the shutter sound so distracting is that since everything else is quiet, the sound really stands out. If there were the constant murmur of the crowd or something it wouldn't be so bad. |
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Mike Mohaupt, Student/Intern
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Grand Forks | ND | USA | Posted: 1:57 PM on 04.12.06 |
->> I have only shot one golf event and it was high school state. And while I was shooting it I set my mkII to quite shutter mode. Sure you get one frame a second but I felt I didnt need a motor drive for golf.
Don't most people use it?
PF 21 for the guys that don't know where it is. I usually use this mode during press confrences too. I haven't had any problems.
~Mike |
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Chris Machian, Photographer, Assistant
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Omaha | NE | USA | Posted: 2:02 PM on 04.12.06 |
->> One might consider a leica, or as I use, a Konica Hexar.
The black one is supposed to be one of the quetest AF cameras ever made. But it is film... |
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Jason Kaye, Photographer
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Tacoma | WA | | Posted: 2:15 PM on 04.12.06 |
| ->> If you look at Dave Black's site (link above) you'll find a photo of Tiger Woods in his back swing. Dave shot it with a Nikon Coolpix and no one was the wiser because the shutter makes minimal, if any, noise. There are Canon point and shoots that do the same. |
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Curtis Clegg, Photographer
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Belvidere | IL | USA | Posted: 2:20 PM on 04.12.06 |
->> Jason, thanks for the link to Dave Black's page. It is good to see pros thinking outside the "DSLR only" mindset!
Along those lines, I suspect we will be pleasantly surprised by the next generation of high-end digicams. The Sony R1 is virtually silent and has an APS-sized 10.3 MP CMOS sensor, and it has a stunning Zeiss lens. The common complaints about it are that its AF is slow (although it does offer the option of MF), especially in low light, and only takes bursts of three images. But, for a wedding, a courtroom trial, a golf swing, or a funeral it might be the best alternative to a blimp for about the same price.
If the next generation addresses those shortfalls and adds some kind of image stabilization, I'll be one of the first buyers. |
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Nick Doan, Photographer
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Scottsdale | AZ | USA | Posted: 2:27 PM on 04.12.06 |
->> I hate to be nitpicky, but the rules do state that no photographs should be taken during a backswing. So, should people really be looking for a way to take such a picture??
Yes, a blimp helps, but it still makes noise. Yes, you can be very far away, but you'd be surprised how far sound can carry on a golf course.
In light of the circumstances, and wondering what the consequences are going to be at Augusta in the future, I'm not sure how helpful this discussion is...
While I'm no JD Cuban or Darren Carroll, I have covered more than a dozen PGA and LPGA tournaments. And, I have learned that you either have to be really sure you know what you are doing before you start pushing the envelope of the rules; and you should still be deathly afraid of screwing up at the wrong time.
And to the people that wonder about how distracting the noise can be...think of this, a golfer has no chance for a do over, and no chance to fix a mistake. Every shot has to be absolutely perfect (or as close as they can get it). Because one missed stroke can end up costing them hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Phil Mickelson won $1.2 million. The second place was Tim Clark who won $750k, and third place was Tiger and a few other guys who won $315k. A three stroke difference equates to losing a green jacket and $900k!!! Think about that when you are wondering why golfers are so touchy. |
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Randy Janoski, Photographer
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Washington DC & Nashville | TN | USA | Posted: 2:41 PM on 04.12.06 |
->> Scott...About the "blimp": $800 for one of those things? You'd have to be on crack to buy that.
You have evidently never worked with one. Jacobson is the "standard" for the industry. They are a bit more than a Pelican case with some junk stuck to it. |
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Alex Menendez, Photographer
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Orlando | FL | USA | Posted: 2:44 PM on 04.12.06 |
->> Karl,
I signed two forms to get my credential on two seperate occasions in the past few months- one was for agreeing not to sell the images and the other was that these images were to be used for editorial use only and the company I was shooting for.
I think this further proves my point that different events are set up different in different parts of the country and there is no consistency. I am sure that there are rules and forms to sign at particular events and one would expect the same forms to appear at all events but in my case they didn't. I know the rules of the PGA and do abide by the rules when I am both inside and outside of the ropes, thats not the point I was trying to make. My point is to let "first time" shooters know that the opportunity to shoot is not a right but a priveledge and there are about 100 other working pro's who might like the opportunity to shoot an event and the lucky ones that are shooting should abide by the rules. REVOKED is a big word on the credential and the shooter should know what the reasons to get the credential pulled are.....thats all I am saying. If you signed a "Form" then you know the rules, not everybody signs and not every event has a "sign here form".
Please read the first sentence of my last post.... |
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Vern Verna, Photographer
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Greenville | SC | United States | Posted: 3:16 PM on 04.12.06 |
->> alex, when u shoot a tour event u sign a pga tour paper that spells out the backswing, minimum focus length and the rights on the pixs. (remember the lpga hawaii thread a few weeks back about signing the paper). if u didnt sign a paper at a tour event, the credential person messed up as i have signed one at every tour event i have done in the last 10 years.
just as a side note i saw the same wire service that offended phil here shoot in a backswing of tiger at the us open in new york a few years back and after being chastised by the usga he was left to keep shooting. I am not sure if it is the same shooter or not as this wire tends to send the same shooters to the majors. |
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Reinhold Matay, Photographer
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Orlando | Fl | USA | Posted: 10:36 AM on 04.13.06 |
| ->> Despite all of the preperation and knowing the rules accidents happen. I was covering the 2006 Bay Hill Invitational on Saturdays round I was 50 yards down field with my 400 and a 1.4 converter. I was on my knees and my swing camera on my shoulder that had a wide angle in it which was hanging down at my side. As Curtis Glover got to the top of his backswing Somehow the swing camera triggered (Motor Drive 5 or 6 shots)as I leaned back. All I could do was lower my head. Heck...what can you do..From now on Ill keep it off until needed but then maybe Ill miss a fan reaction shot...oh well. I have to appologise to both Curtis Glover and my friend Orlando Sentinel Photographer Bobby Kocher as they thought he was the guy who did it. I cleared it up with Bobby later and as for Curtis Glover...If you ever read this ...I am sorry.... but even you have hit it in the water. Doesnt mean your a bad golfer ...but mistakes happen. So if you find yourself shooting golf please be aware the swing camera shutter doesnt know the duifference between a finger and a heel! If it helps Curtis my paper ran a full page shot of you that day !!!! |
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Caryn Levy, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Ponte Vedra Beach | FL | USA | Posted: 10:50 AM on 04.13.06 |
->> Reinhold-
That would be Lucas Glover, not Curtis. |
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Fred Beckham, Photographer
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Mike O'Bryon, Photographer
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Ft. Lauderdale | FL | USA | Posted: 11:53 AM on 04.13.06 |
->> While proper etiquette should be universal...it's important to remember that specific regulations may be imposed from the governing body hosting an event ( PGA TOUR, PGA of America, USGA, R&A, LPGA, Augusta National Golf Club...etc ) each have their own rules regarding tasking and subsequent use of the images.
It's important to update oneself with the current regs for the event at hand.
-- Mike |
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Alex Menendez, Photographer
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Orlando | FL | USA | Posted: 1:41 PM on 04.13.06 |
->> Fred,
You got me man!!! This is a form I signed to get credentialed in the first place,online,about a month prior. My Bad, yes I opened my big mouth when I shouldn't have. I do apologize. When I arrived at the event I signed 2 of about 6 forms lying on the table and then another sheet to get an "inside the ropes pass."
Any interns,students or other shooters out there, please note that even crotchity old geysers like myself still make mistakes.
Thanks
alex |
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Rich Pilling, Photographer
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New York | NY | U.S.A. | Posted: 3:52 PM on 04.14.06 |
| ->> Okay, so who pushed the trigger? |
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