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|| SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board
20D, 30D or D200
Erik Bishoff, Photographer, Student/Intern
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Eugene | OR | USA | Posted: 4:53 PM on 02.25.06 |
->> Like many others on this message board... I'm looking for some advice.
I'm an architecture graduate student at the University of Oregon who used to be a student-shooter. I'm now working freelance photojournalism (on a very limited basis since school rules my life now) and bring in some money from time to time doing weddings and portraits. I want to continue with the freelance work so it's important to me to have a somewhat fast camera.
I was shooting with an antiquated D1 that kicked the bucket and have worked with loaner and rental D1H's and D70's. So I'm familiar with Nikon's. The kicker is that I do have _some_ Nikon gear so my plan was to buy a D200. I have a SB-80DX speedlight, a pretty sad Nikkor 24-120 and a decent 18-35.
My other option is to take the plunge and go Canon with either a 30D or 20D and sell my Nikon gear. My budget is only about $2000. When I graduate I plan to continue shooting and perhaps go pro as a landscape/architecture shooter but that's 2-3 years down the road.
Any advice would be GREATLY appreciated.
Thanks in advance!
Bish |
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Harrison Shull, Photographer
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Asheville | NC | USA | Posted: 5:05 PM on 02.25.06 |
->> Erik-
I don't think that you really have enough $$$ invested now in Nikon to let it sway your decision. If you had a ton of fast AF-S glass or some VR lenses it might be another story.
I think the key is to determine what you want out of your photography on down the road and go from there. From the outside looking in, it seems to me that you should look long and hard to going Canon if you want to be a landscape and architecture photographer since they already have three full-frame sensor cameras on the market with more sure to come. Who knows if and/or when Nikon will ever offer a full-frame sensor.
So maybe sell your Nikon gear for whatever you can get and buy a Canon 20d/30d or maybe even a decent used 1Dm2 plus some basic glass for the time being. Then as time and finances allow, buy a full-frame sensor body (5d or 1Dsm2 used) along with one of Canon's fine TS lenses and you will be good to go for your architecture pics.
my $0.02... |
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Jan Langsner, Photographer
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Lloydminster | AB | Canada | Posted: 6:06 PM on 02.25.06 |
->> If you plan to shoot a lot of architecture, somewhere down the road you will probably want to consider a Tilt Shift lens.
From what I have been able to find, Nikon makes one. An 85mm f/2.8 PC Micro-Nikkor. While Canon has 3 different focal lengths. A TS-E 24mm f/3.5L, a TS-E 45mm f/2.8 and a TS-E 90mm f/2.8.
Being a Nikon shooter I am not sure which Canon lenses fit on which bodies as we don't have that issue. But this may be one thing to consider in your decision making process. |
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Roger Ogden, Photographer
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Brookline | NH | USA | Posted: 8:04 PM on 02.25.06 |
| ->> I'd look at the 5D if I were you. I think it's better if you plan on shooting non-moving objects. |
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Bruce Twitchell, Photographer
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Coeur d'Alene | ID | USA | Posted: 8:13 PM on 02.25.06 |
->> Erik,
While the 5D would be a great camera to get, you say you only have a budget of about $2000 so the 5D is not an option. I have been a Canon guy my whole life so I may be biased, but the 20D is a great camera, especially for non-sports (and in my opinion does a pretty damn good job with sports as well).
I would look at a used 20D and invest in the glass to start. The 20D gets the job done and the amount you can save on a used 20D over a new 30D you can get a couple of lower end canon glass or about half of a new upper end one. Look at used glass as well, especially here on the ss.com classifieds. I have bought quite a bit from the classifieds here and am yet to have a bad experience.
hope this might help a little, if you have questions about the 20D specifically you can email me directly.
-bruce
http://www.photobybruce.com |
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Walter Calahan, Photographer
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Westminster | MD | USA | Posted: 9:42 AM on 02.26.06 |
->> If you've got 2k to spend.
Get the Nikon D200.
You've already got the glass.
Canon is great, but the switch will blow you're budget.
The D200 is like getting a mini-D2X.
As far as architecture, the pros are all using medium format digital backs on 6x9 or 4x5 view cameras using digital specific large format lenses. The best of Nikon and Canon can NOT compete with this set up.
I just did a digital panoramic collage landscape for a client using Really Right Stuff panoramic leveling gear with a D200 using a 12-24 mm lens. All the perspectives were perfect, and I got a 180° view.
Assembling 6 images into a 300 ppi 8.113x24.397 inch image at 51.0 mb (2434 pixels x 7319 pixels). This photograph could be upsized to a huge print.
So for $1679 you can get a very fine upgrade to your system, and dream that when you become an architect you can buy a high-end Phase One back for a Sinar 6x9 view camera with Schneider digital lenses. |
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Michael Fischer, Photographer
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Spencer | Ia | USA | Posted: 11:22 AM on 02.26.06 |
| ->> Former Nikon shooter here who agrees with Walter - buy the D200. Based on what shooting you are doing, there's little if any reason to switch. You own the glass, and there's no compelling reason to switch that I can see. |
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Corey Perrine, Photographer
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Kansas City | MO | USA | Posted: 11:28 AM on 02.26.06 |
->> Erik,
If I were you, and it sounds like you have a tight budget, it's a matter of what system you REALLY want to go with. If you can stretch it I would make the switch. However I am biased and am a Canon shooter.
With all that said, and in all actuality, it sounds like the D200 would be the best bet for you. You want to do freelance and weddings and by the time you graduate you will be ready for a new camera. So if you are comfortable with Nikon stick with it. It's a good system. HOWEVER, if you forsee Canon being the digital leader, which personally I see them as, and that REALLY matters to you, go with Canon. If you've been watching the megapixel war Canon has been winning for the past four years. But the D200 is Nikon's current upper hand. A great camera from what I've read. So all in all it's down to system vs. what you can afford now. As for a view camera you can make your own digital view camera at this site...
http://www.siskinphoto.com/magazine/zpdf/DigitalViewCamera.pdf
Corey |
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Erik Bishoff, Photographer, Student/Intern
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Eugene | OR | USA | Posted: 1:44 PM on 02.26.06 |
->> So it sounds like the Nikon users say "go Nikon" and the Canon users say "go Canon". *8)
That D200 sure is a nice looking little unit.
At the same time the 20D's are about to get even more affordable.
On another note, the local guys at the Register Guard and my buddy Neelman over at the Oregonian almost all use Canon now. They have been a great source for advice and 2nd hand gear. I would assume used Canon gear is much easier to come by period?
Thanks y'all for the extremely helpful feedback and please do keep it coming! |
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Rob Kerr, Photographer
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Bend | OR | US | Posted: 4:03 PM on 02.26.06 |
->> Heya Erik,
Consider high-iso noise with your needs. There is little debate over the cleanliness of the images from Canon. There are lots of rumors, speculations, third-party software noise filters, photoshop corrections, and words of great "improvement" with the Nikon system. Proponants know that with Nikon, once you get the workflow nailed, its easy. It always seems that Nikon users are comparing the improvements in noise performance to other Nikon models...but I believe you need to do your own subjective tests. Seems to me that my Canon 20D was easy out of the box in noise control and continues to be a really productive workhorse.
But for the budget, maybe consider the D70s. SS'er and co-worker Anthony Dimaano loves his and although craving the D200, knows how to get the job done well with the much-less expensive D70. The D100 as well can perform more reasonably at 1600. A move like that could open up faster lens options as well as the SB-800 multi-flash package.
If you really think you want to pursue some indoor sports and wedding gigs, though, please consider the labor and ultimate quality of high-iso. Available light in a church, the dark rainy days of the valley, theater, bands and nightlife -- the performance of Canon's low-noise at high iso's can really help you get the job done with confidence and arguably less post-production.
This is probably a vote for the Canon 30D.
-rob. |
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Christopher Koutsis, Photographer
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huntington | ny | USA | Posted: 5:05 PM on 02.26.06 |
| ->> I say get the D200...AS A CANON USER, and former Nikon user! As others have said, with your budget and the types of things you want to shoot, it only makes sense. And, when you become an architect, just buy both systems, each with glass ranging from 15mm - 400mm, see which system you like better, then give what ever system you decide aganist. I can live with hand-me-downs. |
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Erik Bishoff, Photographer, Student/Intern
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Eugene | OR | USA | Posted: 6:02 PM on 02.26.06 |
->> Now I have more questions than answers.
A very convincing argument from both Rob Kerr and Corey Perrine. Thanks guys!
The dark churches and stadiums I've grown accustomed to shooting in are a heck of a burden. Nothing drives me crazier than the low-light-noise I experience from the inferior Nikon chips.
However, the existing equipment that I alraeady have also encourages me to stay Nikon (esp. my speedlight). I know the D200 has _improved_ their image quality substantially and I'm used to running noise-reduction scripts as part of my workflow already.
Still researching,
Bish |
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Walter Calahan, Photographer
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Westminster | MD | USA | Posted: 8:32 PM on 02.26.06 |
->> Erik
I read a recent review of Canon verses Leica digital.
The conclusion was Leica beat Canon hands down.
But an interesting twist to the review came when the reviewer put a Canon adaptor on the Leica glass.
Turns out the Canon digital bodies all performed better with Leica lenses.
Once again proving it ain't the camera, it's the lens that makes the picture.
So I think you need an Leica R9 with a Imacon digital back and all new Leica lenses.
Of course you've got 2 grand and you're a student studying to be an architect.
Don't let the cash burn a hole in your pocket. |
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Landon Finch, Photographer, Assistant
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Colorado Springs | CO | USA | Posted: 9:44 AM on 02.27.06 |
| ->> Maybe I missed this somewhere, but I don't think I saw anything about a backup body. You cannot shoot a wedding (or any assignment in my mind) without at least one back up body. Mayby you'll rent a second body, but I wouldn't want to rely on rental bodies all the time. Keep your Nikon gear, get two 'D70s' for $1700, pick up some other essentials, and you'll be golden for while. Your talent and business practices will be much more important than your gear. |
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Nick Wright, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Independence | KS | | Posted: 11:44 AM on 02.27.06 |
->> Here's another suggestion that no one has mentioned yet.
Get yourself a CanonD2000/Kodak DCS520. They're going for about $400 now and they are excellent cameras.
If you've got $2,000 you can get yourself a D2000, a Canon 70-200/2.8 (used about $900) and a Canon 17-40/4 (used about $500 I think). And still have money left over.
It will allow you to get better glass, which is the most important thing in all this as some else has already mentioned.
Don't allow the fact that it's "old tech" to influence you.
I just recently purchased a bunch of new (to me) gear. I bought a 10D and I'm very much regretting not going back to the D2000. |
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Gary Brittain, Photographer
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Richmond | VA | USA | Posted: 12:10 PM on 02.27.06 |
->> Erik,
I have shot both Nikon and Canon. nikon from '81 to '97 and Canon since then.
As has been stated earlier, Canon already has a full frame sensor camera. Nikon does not.
Canon has 3 Tilt/Shift lenses. Nikon one.
The 20D is going to come down when the 30D comes out. Heck, it already has a decent price right now.
The 20D is a great camera. Low to no noise at higher ISO's, excellent for weddings, fairly decent for sports.
I shoot with it and I am very happy. |
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Walter Calahan, Photographer
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Westminster | MD | USA | Posted: 1:04 PM on 02.27.06 |
->> "full frame sensor"
All my Nikons have full frame sensor, it's just that they're not the same size as a 35 mm piece of film.
All Canon digital cameras have full frame sensors, some simply are manufactured to be the same size as a 35 mm piece of film.
Is 35 mm film not a full piece of film just because it's not the same size of what my Hasselblad shoots?
I guess my Hasselblad has a multiplication factor to consider since it doesn't use 4x5 film?
Pick the best tool that your bank account can afford.
Erik won't get much for his SB-80x or his lenses, so to switch to the very excellently made Canon system is out of his price range if you factor in a new strobe and 2 or 3 lens. On 2k he ain't buying three tilt/shift lenses! |
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Erik Bishoff, Photographer, Student/Intern
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Eugene | OR | USA | Posted: 4:49 PM on 02.28.06 |
->> Landon: I always rent or borrow a 2nd body for weddings. Most of the time (concerts, portraits, personal use, some sports) two bodies aren't as necessary so it's worth my money to invest in one good body.
Nick: That is good advice but I think I want to go "new" for the sake of having a warranty and good 'ol piece-of-mind. Although when the 30D's come out there may be a bunch of used 20D's hitting the market.
Gary: Also good advice. I'm looking forward to seeing prices drop in a couple months.
Thanks everyone! |
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Erik Bishoff, Photographer, Student/Intern
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Eugene | OR | USA | Posted: 11:43 AM on 03.04.06 |
->> Just discovered this on RobGalbraith.com
"...we've shot the D200 and 20D side-by-side for available light basketball over several weekends this winter, and the 20D is by far the better camera for this purpose. Not only were the ISO 800 through ISO 3200 frames massively cleaner and more usable, the percentage of in-focus frames was signficantly higher. In fact, we've ruled out using the D200 for this sort of assigment again. So, we don't think Nikon has in the D200 a camera that's a clear winner over the upcoming 30D by any means."
http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.asp?cid=7-7891-8214-8216
Thanks again everyone for all the advice.
I think I see a 20D or 30D in my future.
(Plus... Neelman over at the Oregonian threatened to disown me if I didn't make the change to Canon.) |
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Walter Calahan, Photographer
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Westminster | MD | USA | Posted: 6:52 PM on 03.04.06 |
->> Erik
You changed the rules buddy.
You said "doing weddings and portraits" not "available light basketball."
If you plan on doing landscape and architectural upon graduating in two to threes years, the whole digital industry will have changed by then.
Mostly I think you should quote RobGalbraith.com in full next time.
"The ability to configure and fire multiple Nikon Speedlights is one of the niftiest capabilities of the Nikon D200. In fact, given the likelihood that prospective purchasers of a midrange digital SLR, at least those not locked into a system already, will be directly comparing Nikon's latest digital SLR to the 30D, we wonder if Canon has done enough in refreshing the 20D to counter the siren call of the D200."
"But, the D200's higher pixel count, greater burst depth, way-cool wireless flash system support, large viewfinder image, more expansive configuration options, reasonably smooth shutter and really quite nice feel in the hand may make it a more compelling offering to those comparing the two at their local camera store, despite the fact the Nikon will be a few hundred dollars more. For much of what we shoot, the 20D is a better choice than the D200, so it's likely the 30D will be as well. But for many shooters, those who can stick to lower ISO settings and don't shoot much action, the D200 may seem like the more appealing option.
The 30D is almost certainly going to be a fine camera in its own right, but it doesn't leapfrog the specifications of the competition in the way we've become accustomed from the supercharged Canon of recent times. It will be interesting to see how it fares against Nikon's hot-selling D200 as a result."
In reading the review in full, sounds like the D200 is much better in lower ISO imaging. And the flash options for portraiture is better than Canon. But then again I'm not the best reader in this world.
I think this was a fishing exercise by you to rally support for your selling the Nikon to buy Canon. You made up your mind before posting this thread to share my opinion.
I feel suckered. I've disowned you. HA!
Don't come running to me when you want to learn large format to shoot landscapes and architecture. |
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