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Yearbook photos

Gary Vasquez, Photographer

Covina | CA | USA | Posted: 8:48 PM on 11.29.05

->> Hey all. I shot football for my old high school this season mainly to build up my portfolio. I was e-mailed by the teacher in charge of the yearbook, asking if I would submit photos. Of course she did mention she would pay.

I plan on selling maybe 20-25 photos to her all 4x6 size in print. The question is, since they are on a limited budget, what asking price would be good? I don't want to charge a lot since their budget is limited, and not too little as well. I also have written a contract for such a thing in general so that my photos will be used for specific purposes and nothing more after. But for the amount of photos at that size, what would be a good selling price to the school?

Thanks!

...Gary

Bruce Twitchell, Photographer

Coeur d'Alene | ID | USA | Posted: 8:55 PM on 11.29.05

->> Gary,
Here is what I am doing (of course I also teach at the high school). I am letting them use the photos in the yearbook in exchange for the following:
my website address as photo credit
being allowed to sell the photos online to parents
an advertisement in the yearbook

don't know if that helps you at all. figure with the advertising i can hopefully make the money up and then some from the publicity.

Joe Nicola, Photographer

Fort Worth | TX | USA | Posted: 10:40 PM on 11.29.05

->> I'll probably get blasted for saying this, but here's a suggestion and what has been done for me with some of our school-related publications:

I sell them a photo at the standard rate that I would charge a parent. Say $7.00 for a 4x6. Hey, I got costs, right?

Then they provided A. a free ad (1/4 page is fine), B. Photo credit both in the "credits" section of the book and on the photo (that, like you suggest, includes my web address).

A regional magazine did something similar where they paid me for my work AND gave me a free ad (that they designed, no less) and photo credit with almost every photo. It was cool.

Landon Finch, Photographer, Assistant

Colorado Springs | CO | USA | Posted: 11:12 PM on 11.29.05

->> I too work at a high school let the yearbook use my pics for photo credits (I'd let them use the pics even if no credit was given...its not that big of deal to me).

I figure if kids/parents see me shooting at the events and see my name and work in the yearbook, its good PR for me and helps promote my senior portraits work.

Frankly, I am surprised they have a budget to pay you for images. If you are giving them actual prints, I would at least make them pay for your costs.

Bev Daly, Photographer

Troy | OH | USA | Posted: 12:02 AM on 11.30.05

Bob Ford, Photographer

	Lehighton \| Pa \| USA \| Posted: 12:16 AM on 11.30.05
	->> I have a couple friends who do a lot of work at several high schools in the area. It looks like they won't be doing it too much longer if people in this area start giving away their images for photo credits. My daughter is the business manager for the yearbook at her high school, and yes, they DO HAVE A BUDGET. If I remember correctly it's $35,000 this year.

Darren Whitley, Photographer

	Maryville \| MO \| USA \| Posted: 1:13 AM on 11.30.05
	->> It probably takes every bit of that $35K to print that yearbook too. Even $10,000 doesn't buy much in the way of publishing books. We spent $15,000 on drum scans and digital restoration this past year for a commemorative book at the university.

Jeffery Jones, Photographer

Gallup | NM | USA | Posted: 1:18 AM on 11.30.05

->> In the past the local high school has asked for photos from my newspaper for their yearbook, and not done anything in return for them - just expected that since we had already shot them why shouldn't we hand them over.

Never again. The yearbook company (Jostens) is ripping these kids off like crazy -- try $75 for a BASIC yearbook that they did NONE of the photography for. Lifetouch Studios is demanding that ALL seniors pay a $20 sitting fee to have their photo included in the yearbook, and they will not accept ANY outside photos from other studios/ photographers. If you can't afford the $20 sitting fee (and being a border town next to the Navajo Nation reservation lands there are a lot of students that can't) then you are not included in the yearbook. Period.

Plus, the parents and local businesses are being pressed into buying advertising inside the book to sponsor it -- for the parents they are charging as much as $200 for a dedication/rememberance listing on one of the inside pages.

So here they are making a minimum of $100 per student, and from some a LOT more, and they expect me to donate my work to "help out the school"? Get real. My gear and schooling cost me a fortune, nobody dontated anything to me. I have bills and student loans to pay. If they want photos from me then they will have to pay the full publication rates as listed in the "Pricing Photography" book.

I say charge them like you would any other client for a commercial job. They are certainly in it to make a profit at the expense of the community, at least my fees go back into the local economy. This endless cycle of people "helping out" and donating photos or giving them away at rock bottom prices is killing the chance of anybody making a living wage in this business. It has to stop, and our work has to be priced to match the skill, experience, equipment and love that went into it.

Bruce Twitchell, Photographer

Coeur d'Alene | ID | USA | Posted: 1:36 AM on 11.30.05

->> Well I believe it is different in every school district and school how much money is allocated to the yearbook. I know at my school, the yearbook account is very low, they really do not have a budget to buy photos. Is my giving photos to the school where I work killing the industry? No. If I didn't give them photos they would have none in the yearbook of many events.

I am not giving my photos away to gain access, I have that already. What does advertising cost in a yearbook? That is what I am getting paid, that and the knowing that I am helping out a local school. Heaven forbid we make a donation to a school once in a while. You know the more I think about it, many of you are correct- don't ever help out a school, they have huge budgets, can afford the best of anything and everything. The budgets are unlimited- the sky is the limit. I know as a photography teacher at a high school I have everything I want- oh wait, no I don't. Over crowed classrooms, not enough supplies, I am shelling out my own money to make sure the students have supplies- you guys are right, don't donate to schools, stick it to them, squeeze every penny you can out of the school.

If you think I am killing the industry by donating photos to the yearbook then there is most likely no changing your mind. All I know though is the exposure I am getting from it is worth more than I could ever imagine or would ever pay in advertising. I am reaching the pocketbooks of many, many parents and letting them know that I photograph sports, weddings, seniors, etc. I am getting paid.

Richard Uhlhorn, Photographer

Chelan Falls | WA | USA | Posted: 1:50 AM on 11.30.05

->> I also admit to giving images to the annual yearbook staff. My ulterior motive of course is to stay in touch with the kids (usually the annual staff is loaded with seniors and athletes) so that I get their business when it comes to shooting senior portraits, something I really enjoy doing. The kids on the annual staff always thank me within the yearbook, so my name is out there. I just write it off as advertising.

Cheers Rich

Julian Jenkins, Photographer

Meridian | ID | USA | Posted: 1:55 AM on 11.30.05

->> Excuse me for asking but why aren't the students in the yearbook and photo class taking the images. Maybe I'm from the old school (you know, way back in 1987) but our school had those students making the best images they can, a handful of cameras (Pentax K1000's and some twin reflexes) and bulk roll B&W film was given to us but that was so much more personal than hiring a pro to do it. No, the photos were not great lots of times but you know what? They were ours, the good, the bad and the ugly.

How do HS students learn the art anymore?

Just MHO.

Julian

Bob Ford, Photographer

Lehighton | Pa | USA | Posted: 2:12 AM on 11.30.05

->> A fairly new member here, who doesn't work at a school, posts a question asking what to charge a high school for use of his images. Keep in mind that he doesn't mention making any money on the pictures yet. He took them "mainly to build up my portfolio".

Four members respond, 2 teachers, 1 teacher's wife and one person who doesn't mention working for a school. They all tell him that they basically give their photos to the school at cost in return for a credit line or advertising.

I post another view pointing out that some people do this for a living, thus implying that he might want to try changing for his work.

Now it seems like I'm the bad guy. Mr. Twitchell seems to imply that if we charge high schools we'll be responsible for the fall of the educational system.

A lot of companies and people make money on schools. I'm betting that Mr. Twitchell, Mr. Landon, and Mrs. Daly's husband all draw salaries. I wonder how they would feel if their teaching positions were replaced by someone who was willing to do their jobs in exchange for a mention in the yearbook.

The bottom line is it's not unheard of, or immoral to charge people, even high schools, a fair rate for the use of pictures.

If you want to give your work away, fine, but I don't think it's responsible to suggest to someone starting in the business to do so.

Chris Williams, Photographer, Student/Intern

Rancho Cucamonga | CA | USA | Posted: 2:39 AM on 11.30.05

->> Julian:

Sadly, the schools in my area at least, spare for a couple, have dropped their photography classes altogether. Stupid budget cuts and a lack of interest are the culprits.

All hope is not lost though. Two of my schools I normally cover have started to invest into Canon 20D's and some L glass and are actually teaching the kids how to use it. I encourage the yearbook advisors all the time to let the kids do as much as they can. It sometimes comes down to the suply and demand theory. They demand images on deadline, but the kids do not suply them fast enough or aren't up to quality.

One school of ours needs only for us to do night football. They still have a B&W photography class that works in conjuction with the yearbook. I have to say that their yearbook is one nicest and classic looking I've ever seen. It's great!

Chris

Ron Hawkes, Photographer

Camden | ME | USA | Posted: 8:17 AM on 11.30.05

->> I cover many different high schools and middle schools in the area, but mostly the school in the town where I live. They have a wonderful online newspaper that many kids contribute articles and photographs to.

However, they always come to me for action photos because they know what I have, they see them in the local paper and on my web site.

I always give the schools what they want for the yearbook and in return I get a nice thank you and a half page ad.

But what I really get is the interaction with the kids, the knowledge that I helped the kids and donated to the local school. priceless!

Every kid in the school that is in sports or theater knows me and it pays off in senior portraits as well as knowing I have helped these kids produce a nice piece of work that they are proud of.

I also have picked up a couple of kids that want to learn about reporting to write for my web site because of the work I do with the kids so that has been nice as well.

Ron

Landon Finch, Photographer, Assistant

Colorado Springs | CO | USA | Posted: 11:48 AM on 11.30.05

->> Bob & Jeffery,

If I didn't give pics to the yearbook, they would simply go without. My giving of pics to the yearbook is not taking money out of any photog's pocket. I am only giving pics to my school's yearbook, not any other.

If Gary can get paid, great...it’s just that my experience suggests charging them "like you would any other client for a commercial job" is unrealistic.

At my school, the yearbook kids run around with P&S cameras and use the built-in flash for inside pics...there is no budget for new equipment. We don't have a photography class...one of the many cuts that have been made over the last 5-15 years. If you think the newspaper business is bad, come spend a day in my public school where the roof leaks, the plumbing and electricity are barely functional, no AC, the 15+ year-old carpet is tearing, there is little money for supplies and materials, very few vocational and elective classes are offered, 30+ kids in each of my classes.........I am not complaining, just pointing out the facts.

In my case, the yearbook only asks for pics when they were not able to get the pics themselves. It amounts to 5-10 pics (out of 100s of pics in the yearbook) a year.

A friend of mine, who is the yearbook advisor at a neighboring school, told me that they barely broke even last year because they sold only X number of yearbooks.

At least in this area, the yearbook business (from the school's perspective) is NOT a money-making business. If anything, it costs the school to produce a yearbook.

However, I appreciate what you guys have said and my original post should have read something like this:

Gary, if you can get paid, do it! I hope they can pay for your services. It has been my experience that schools have little to no budget to pay for pics so don't be surprised if they can't pay much. If they can, you've got a good thing going.

Quote them what you feel it's worth and see what they say.

Good luck.

Wally Raynes, Photographer

	Donsieders \| Germany \| \| Posted: 12:01 PM on 11.30.05
	->> Donating a handful of images for the school yearbook is a jesture, a small token of appreciation, for the amount of business the parents and kids have given me throughout the year. It seems to work, and I suppose that is what its all about....Building a long term relationship rather than 'hit and run' approach.

Louis Lopez, Photographer

Fontana | CA | USA | Posted: 3:12 PM on 11.30.05

->> The yearbook classes that I service are run very well, just like a business and they are very professional and have no problem paying just like a regular client for my services. They raise their own funds to supplement what is provided them in the school budget. The Teachers that run these classes should be applauded for their dedication and professionalism. Treat them professionaly like a client and they will appreciate it.

Marvin Gentry, Photographer

Birmingham | AL | USA | Posted: 9:32 PM on 11.30.05

->> My full time job is for a studio that shoots for 30 high schools and 60+ elementary and middle schools, I freelance on the side shooting sports for small time colleges and newspapers. So let me share my insite. Most schools do not have the equipment to get the professional type photos that they are looking for in the yearbook. Yes some schools do have Canon 20d camera and they do have lens but if you have seen any of these students work you will understand totally why they do not want to use there photos, plus yearbook sponsors do not want to depend on students to show up at a game to take photos when most students are not responsible enough. As to the mention of Lifetouch, My company is basically the same as them. We charge $20 for a sitting fee and only let our photos in the yearbook, but what most parents and other photogrpahers do not realize is that we give a large sum of money to the school, we have a couple of schools that we give more than a beginner photojoutmalist makes in a year whether they buy any photos or not. Then we also furnish photos for there yearbook. We cover probalby 100- 150 events a year at the school. We put all events online for sale at which some events such as football are very profitable. If I had shot the photos for the purpose of working on my portfolio I would give the photos to the school with the understanding that they put my website and give me advertising in the yearbook. I would also cover some other sports other than football due to alot of parents want to purchase there kids also . A big seller is Championship events, just make sure you have the schools blessing before shooting and putting them online , we have some schools that have no media policies which include the internet. You will end up making more money selling online and stay in good gracings with the yearbook and the sponsors than charging them and then they will not promote you.

Mike Carlson, Photographer

Bayonet Point | FL | USA | Posted: 12:19 AM on 12.01.05

->> As well as being a photographer I took on the task this year of being the Yearbook Advisor/Journalism teacher at my school (a large, 2700+ school in the Tampa area). This being my first year with this program I have worked closely with the publisher's representative so I know that our experience is similar to many in our area.

As far as a budget - and this is a growing trend - we have to operate solely on a cost-recovery basis. Basically, the school gives us absolutely nothing. The bulk of our funds are raised through advertising sales, senior/friendship dedications and book sales...all to fund a book that will cost in the neighborhood of $70,000 to produce. With the budget we also have to purchase all of our own photography equipment and upgrade/upkeep the computer equipment.

While I certainly do not claim to speak for all, I know that our reality is very similar to the one Landon described - we would simply do without if we did not have any 'donated'. Now, that said, I have been fortunate to have been able to pick some great kids to work with and who have shown a genuine interest to learn some photography skills. I bring my gear to some events/games and have the kids use it (carefully...) or have them help setup and fire remotes. While I certainly do not overuse/abuse my own equipment, it is a bit of a unique experience for HS kids to us a Mk II and a 400 to shoot the yearbook and they appreciate it, so for me it isn't much to 'give' (even though I do get paid extra to teach it...).

To relate this to the original post, while I certainly agree that photographers should be paid, the reality is that with decreased school funding most publications cannot afford a proper fee and will have to settle for offering credit/adverstising or will simply have to pass and know they are settling for inferior work.

Jeffery Jones, Photographer

Gallup | NM | USA | Posted: 2:58 PM on 12.01.05

->> Marvin -
you are in a position like I used to be when I worked for a David Banks Studios in Minneapolis. We had the contract for the yearbook (seniors) photos. But, that also meant we had to supply photos from events, and we had to, as part of that contract, provide free, a single pose sitting for seniors that did not want to have us take their senior photos - either for cost or other reasons. If you have a contract for the portraits and are providing the sports/events photos as a part of that service I totally agree that is the right thing to do. You are making your money and the events images are part of the contract of services you provide.

My gripe with the way things are run here in Gallup and the surrounding area is that these yearbook companies are dictating exclusive usage for their portraits and yet providing NO service for covering events. I don't see my giving photos to the yearbook so much as helping the kids as it is helping support a big, national company that has hired staff at the studio here in town who freely admit that they know nothing about what they are doing. (My daughter is a senior this year and had to have them do her senior photos for the yearbook, but that was a whole other story).

Over and over again I read that "If I didn't give them the photos then they would do without" as an excuse for devaluing your work. Photos have value people! It takes skill, training, a bunch of equipment (what happens when you are covering one of these events for the school and a 200 pound football player slams into you and breaks your $4000 camera and $1500 lens? Nikon and Canon won't repair it in exchange for you letting people know that you use their cameras.) It is because people continue to see images as novelties with no real value, and because photographer continue to give work away that the industry is in huge trouble.

I can't stop you from doing it, and I can't condemn anybody for being a bad person because they choose to do it, but it is a bad business practice, and it hurts the entire industry.

Landon Finch, Photographer, Assistant

Colorado Springs | CO | USA | Posted: 3:40 PM on 12.01.05

->> If no one will pay money for your image, it has no monetary value.

If someone will pay money for your image, it has monetary value.

In my case, as well as others here, these images we are giving to the yearbook have no monetary value because the yearbooks will not pay for them. However, we are being financially compensated in other ways and I have no problem with that.

The publishing company that my school works with does not provide any photography. Freshmen through Juniors have their pics taken by LifeTouch for the yearbook and the seniors submit a wallet from their senior pics session. Seniors are free to use any photog they want...several of them choose me because they know I am photog from the yearbook and seeing me taking pictures around school.

The simple fact is that I make money because I give a few pics to the yearbook.

Landon Finch, Photographer, Assistant

Colorado Springs | CO | USA | Posted: 5:06 PM on 12.01.05

->> Jeffery,

Companies give away stuff all the time in hopes of generating business.

Have you ever given a discount to a loyal client or given a price break for a client who buys/licenses multiple images? If so, does that mean you undervalue your work?

Why do Nikon & Canon reps show up at SS.com's short course (I forget the exact title)?

Why do SS.com sponsors give us members a discount?

Why does Chic-fil-A give away free samples (I am so glad they do!!!!!!)?

Why do magazine companies give you free gift subscriptions for a friend with a paid subscription?

Why did Printroom give SS.com members a free year of service?

Is it because all these companies undervalue their work/product? Of course not...they all understand that sometimes is takes spending some money (read as: giving away product/time) to generate more business.

Douglas Tesner, Photographer, Photo Editor

Traverse City | MI | USA | Posted: 12:16 PM on 12.30.05

->> There seems to be one thing, everyone has forgotten to mention. WE make money off the schools, kids and their parents by taking the photos and publishing them in our papers. In return they (schools, kids and their parents) buy our papers, request reprints and boast our circulation. Just think how much our circulations would drop if we did not cover prep sport. Most of us would be out of work.

So I will give out pictures to the yearbook effort. I am not greedy and already make a damn good salary off them.

Julian Jenkins, Photographer

	Meridian \| ID \| USA \| Posted: 2:10 PM on 12.30.05
	->> Douglas, I think the photographers that are against giving the images away have the chance to have the school be a client and that when someone gives the images away it hurts their main line of work. I didn't see where the photographers in question worked for a newspaper too. Julian

Jeff Barrie, Photographer

Indianapolis | IN | USA | Posted: 4:50 PM on 12.30.05

->> I shoot a lot for one local school, all sports. I have sold poster size prints to the football team for their display case. The yearbook is a whole different animal. The school system is under contract with a local photographer and he, and only he, can provide pictures for the yearbook. The media classes also contribute but no outside sources for photography.
I know the guy, see him on the sidelines all the time and I like him. He is a nice enough guy and a smart business man. He protected his 3 year contract by being exclusive outside source to the yearbook and for portraits.
When he found out that I also provide online sales to players and parents, I thought he might object but no, he actually wished me well.
If you can charge and do, that is great. If you provide images in exchange for advertising, that is not all bad either. I provided the football team with images for their weekly newsletter in exchange for promoting my site. It worked out very well for me. If I charged them for the 3-5 photos a week, they would find someone who would give them the shots for free anyway and I would be out my online sales. I doubt that they have a budget for $200 a game which is what my online sales averaged.

James Escher, Photographer

Garden City | NY | USA | Posted: 6:04 AM on 12.31.05

->> Experience has taught me that giving images away for free leads to more and more people expecting free images, and while it is not my place to tell others how to run their business I will say that I've yet to meet anyone who purchased a D2X. 1D Mark II or 400mm f/2.8 for $0. I'm also still waiting to meet the person who has managed to stay in business by valuing their time, efforts and talents at $0. Something tells me I'll be waiting a while.

Fool me once...

This is not to say I can't sympathize with clients working on shoestring budgets, but this should not be confused with charity work, and moreover I don't feel making a living is something anyone should have to apologize for. Every situation has different factors that must be considered, including:

-client's budget
-quantity and size of images
-photographer's skill and all-important CODB (cost of doing business)

If professional photographers charge for yearbook contributions - great. There's no easier way to remain financially solvent. If professional photographers choose to work with clients with very tight budgets by giving them images in exchange for advertising space - great. They're doing their part to maintain the principle of equivalent exchange. If professional photographers choose to give their work away for nothing - well, PLEASE let me in on the big secret - I'd love to know where those 400mm f/2.8s grow on trees...and of course I'd be willing to pay the grand sum of $0 for this information!

Best,

James Escher

Gary Vasquez, Photographer

	Covina \| CA \| USA \| Posted: 1:27 AM on 02.02.06
	->> FYI everyone...I did sell my photos to the yearbook and the school was more than willing to pay what I quoted them. Also during the season, many parents bought photos of their kids in action during the season, (something I forgot to mention also)and the sales were more than I expected, an awesome thing. Thanks everyone though for your input and feedback on this topic.

Gil Batzri, Photographer, Assistant

Oakland | CA | USA | Posted: 7:18 PM on 02.02.06

->> To the fellow that was incensed at Lifetouch/Jostens and "sitting fees" for senior photos... (not defending those companies as they are somewhat shabby in my eyes)

I worked at a smaller regional studio in the bay area that competed directly with LT/Jostens for those school contracts. Here is what I gleaned from working on the student photog side (we did sports/events as well, which were "revenue free")

That $20 fee for the year book only (YBO) for seniors broke out like this (and I suspect LT/J is similar)

For every Senior package taken there is a fee/donation made back to the school in our case it was a flat fee (I think) that fee came to $10/a senior, that went into the book.

For the $10 collected (that we net)on the YBO, This has to happen.

A Photo needs to be made, (requiring lights, a DSLR system and notebook, and software) plus the photog needs his hourly. In addition to paying those fees the Lab (aka the studio) now has to crop, and create the database for the senior pages to go to the publisher. This includes, database cleanup, selects, crops and color correcting.

All that work gets paid for by that $10 income. Seems a real bargain. We had a scholarship program as well for the school to dole out to needy kids.

Student photography is a tough business. I couldn't afford to keep working at the studio.

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