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No Sale! (negotiations with a magazine editor)
Landon Finch, Photographer, Assistant
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Colorado Springs | CO | USA | Posted: 3:49 PM on 11.08.05 |
->> I am new at dealing with publications (I've licensed images to magazines about 8 times). Most of the time it has gone smoothly and a little negotiation has taken place and both parties are happy.
Here is a transcript of emails that took place between me and an editor.
I know its long, but is this sort of thing typical?
Here are the emails:
Landon,
[Person A] gave me your contact information. We're running an article on [“Celebrity”] for our January issue (she's on the cover) and I need a few shots of her for the article. [Person A] said you're be the best person to contact.
Can you help me out?
Thanks so much,
Editor in Chief
Magazine X w/ a circulation of 200,000
(I email her my rates and links to several online galleries)
Her reply:
I was under the impression that these images would be free since this is publicity for [“Celebrity”]. Had I known otherwise, we would have taken inside shots at her cover photo shoot. Is there any way to get a break on the price?
Thanks,
Editor in Chief
Magazine X w/ a circulation of 200,000
My response
I am sorry you got that impression from whomever you spoke to. I am a freelance/portrait photographer, not [“Celebrity”]'s publicist. My costs are as real as any business and I need to charge a fair price to stay in business. The prices I quoted are already slightly below the average for a magazine of your circulation. (I offered her a discount if she chose multiple images.)
Her response
Thank you for your quick response. Unfortunately it's just not in our budget.
Editor in Chief
Magazine X w/ a circulation of 200,000
My reply
What is your budget and what are your image needs?
Her response
Typically, we don't pay for publicity photos of celebs that are on our cover, so we honestly didn't budget anything for it (bad oversight).
We just need one casual smiling picture which will run about 1/4 page with her interview.
We could probably eek out $50, but I completely understand if you're not able to work with that.
Editor in Chief
Magazine X w/ a circulation of 200,000
I declined.
Any thoughts? Suggestions? I've tried to educate myself about such dealings and I think the SS.com's community's thoughts and insight might help me and others new to the business.
Thanks |
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Paul W Gillespie, Photographer
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Annapolis | MD | USA | Posted: 4:00 PM on 11.08.05 |
| ->> I think you handled it just right. It is hard to belive that a magazine of that size would think that they could call a freelance photographer and expect free images. Did you shoot the cover photo for that magazine? |
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Joe Robbins, Photographer
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Austin | IN | USA | Posted: 4:02 PM on 11.08.05 |
->> Landon
Congratulations, you did the right thing. Not much more you could have said or done. They obviously didn't want to pay anything for a picture so....they got what they wanted to pay (nothing). That's really the only way you could've handled it as far as I can tell.
Joe |
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Wesley R. Bush, Photographer
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Nashville | TN | U.S. | Posted: 4:07 PM on 11.08.05 |
| ->> I wonder if I could write the company and request a free subscription. I didn't budget that either. |
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Landon Finch, Photographer, Assistant
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Colorado Springs | CO | USA | Posted: 4:08 PM on 11.08.05 |
| ->> Paul-No, they hired a local (to the "celeb") photog for the cover. I don't know who it was. |
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Cecil Copeland, Photographer
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Marietta | Ga | USA | Posted: 4:25 PM on 11.08.05 |
->> Sooooooo .... if they "hired a local" shooter, they wound up paying for the shot anyway, right ????
I wonder how they budgeted THAT ??! |
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Byron Hetzler, Photographer
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Granby | CO | USA | Posted: 4:37 PM on 11.08.05 |
->> ->> I wonder if I could write the company and request a free subscription. I didn't budget that either.
Wesley, a few years ago my local chamber of commerce asked to use a few of my stock shots of the area for their upcoming brochure. I gave them an estimate on the usage fees and my contact was basically appalled that I was expecting to be paid. (They had no budget and he thought the exposure would be compensation enough and everyone that came here on vacation would call me for work--yeah, right.) If I would have been thinking I would have asked for a free membership with the chamber, because I hadn't budgeted for it. |
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Dave Rossman, Photographer
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Houston | TX | USA | Posted: 4:38 PM on 11.08.05 |
->> Way to go Landon,
I just feels so good to tell someone who wants something from you to go jump in a lake. I think Sportsshooter should keep a database of deadbeat magazines and publications that offer bad deals, pay very slow or want things for free. I would love to have a list available I could access as well as let others know whom to avoid. You might as well add bad photo editors to that list as well. "We have no budget for that," they say. Gimme a break. |
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Trent Nelson, Photographer
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Salt Lake City | UT | USA | Posted: 4:42 PM on 11.08.05 |
| ->> That's exactly why I stopped reading Boys Life. |
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Wade Laube, Photographer
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Sydney | NSW | Australia | Posted: 5:40 PM on 11.08.05 |
->> Good work, Landon.
If we don't recognise the value of our work then who will?
I bet they pay the photocopier repairman what he asks for.
I bet they pay the office cleaners their going rate.
I am sure they pay couriers, tradesmen and JOURNALISTS at market-rate too.
Then why am I seeing an emerging trend in the devaluing of editorial photography in the eyes of some commissioning editors, especially when photography is such a central consideration to their business?
In Australia I have discovered it has something to do with hobbyist photographers willing to shoot for next to nothing to get themselves published. I had a prominent sport magazine ask me to shoot a story interstate not long ago. I sent them a quote, and they responded that they saw things a little differently. They thought I would be happy to travel three hours to another city, do half a day's shoot on film, then receive 'payment on publication' of rates up to $US150 for a full page, ranging down to about $50 for a column run. Basically, the best-case outcome for me would have been unlikely to cover my film and fuel, let alone anything else. I told them they had the wrong photographer and wished them luck.
I’d like to think that in the long run, these people will come to realise that you simply get what you pay for. |
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Julian Jenkins, Photographer
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Meridian | ID | USA | Posted: 5:53 PM on 11.08.05 |
->> I wonder if the magazine will find a guy or gal that has a "sideline" photography business like the photo cycling thread that is currently going.
http://www.sportsshooter.com/message_display.html?tid=18088
It's a shame that some shooters are just giving away their work. It devalues what full-timers do. I want to go back to the days of film (pricing wise). You had to know what you're doing to get the good stuff.
Hell, camera phone shots are making the news wire now. Sigh...
Julian |
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Johnathan Deo, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Chico | CA | USA | Posted: 6:01 PM on 11.08.05 |
->> So freaking typical! Publishers want to pay you little or nothing for work these days. When you quote them a reasonable price that's on par with the industry standard they look at you like, "You want money for pushing a button?" It's appalling how people don’t respect this profession. Nice work Landon, no free rides we gotta eat to!
Just a side note I took a photo of Michael Moore that was used in a professors Text book. The photo was property of the campus newspaper I worked for at the time. My advisor told me about him using the photo and I remarked, "that's cool why doesn’t he throw the photography department some money for better equipment?" Needless to say they looked at me like I was mad. Never mind the fact this professor is going to make a fortune on his textbook; they felt no need to compensate anyone but themselves. |
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Tony Scavo, Photographer
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Lemoyne | ohio | USA | Posted: 1:32 AM on 11.09.05 |
->> My favorite one to use is:
You want to pay me with a photo credit? WOW, thats great for me, but unfortunately my 4 children have grown tired of eating paper and have asked dad if he can get someone to pay him for the work he does so they can eat real food.
( apparently magazine copy doesnt taste like lucky charms?? ) So im sorry to have to decline your most generous offer!
Tony Scavo
I have yet to get back a reply from an advertiser or mag who gets that email, which is fine by me because i know what my cost of doing business is and ill be damm sure im gonna let them know what it is too...you get what you pay for ...nothing = nothing in my book! |
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James Escher, Photographer
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Garden City | NY | USA | Posted: 1:47 AM on 11.09.05 |
->> Tony,
I respectfully suggest that as tempting as it is to say something along those lines, it's usually not the best course of action. The idea isn't to say no to clients looking for free images - it's to get them to pay for the images you work hard to create. A more diplomatic approach to negotiating tactics may translate to more money in your pocket. Sure, some of those clients won't budge - those are the ones not worth wasting time with, but some are willing to pay if you play your cards right.
Best,
James Escher |
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Tony Scavo, Photographer
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Lemoyne | ohio | USA | Posted: 2:13 AM on 11.09.05 |
->> James
Sorry, i should have clarified.
I dont go off the handle like that right away, i exhaust all avenues lading to worthwhile payment before i go that route, but i dont hesitate to end up there either. see the problem many of us full timers have is that there are too many part timers who DO give away work for photo credits, these advertisers and magazine editors didnt get this way by waking up in the morning and thinking " im gonna be a cheap ass today " they tried it, it worked and they got better at it and it worked some more...the photographer is the only one to blame for giving away his work he put in the time and effort to accomplish ( not to mention finances )
I have no qualms about losing work to someone who isnt willing to pay my worth, and i will not hesitate to let them know just how upset it makes me...bottom line is, if this is how that potential client is going to treat me today, it stands to reason his tactics wont change next week...so therefore eliminating him/her from my list of clients doesnt hurt me, it helps me...it means my paying customers get even more focused attention from me...and i know they like that!
best :)
Tony |
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Ron Holman, Photographer
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Visalia | CA | USA | Posted: 3:21 AM on 11.09.05 |
->> State your price. Stand your ground. Be fair to yourself and the client.
Snippy remarks accomplish nothing. Maintain a professional, courteous manner so when they do have a budget for professional work they are more likely to call you again. And, the editor that works for Tight-Wad Times today may get a better job. While the new job may bolster his or her photo budget, I doubt it will do much for his or her impression of a smart-ass photogrpaher.
-Ron |
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Mark Smith, Photographer
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Elk City | OK | USA | Posted: 3:48 AM on 11.09.05 |
->> Way to go Landon!
On the subject of negotiotion and how to handle it, I think it is important to remember that the person you are talking to usually isn't making the decision to get photos on the cheap. Most of the time they are doing what they are told to do, get photos as cheaply as possible. Sometimes they have wiggle room, sometimes they don't. Not too long ago, I heard the similar "maybe we can eek out $50" and they ended up paying my price of $750. |
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Jeff Stanton, Photographer
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Tucson | AZ | USA | Posted: 3:58 AM on 11.09.05 |
| ->> I'm glad you said no to such a paltry offer. I never and i repeat, NEVER ask what their budget is. To me, that's opening the door for them to offer less and she did just that. |
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Mark Smith, Photographer
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Elk City | OK | USA | Posted: 4:01 AM on 11.09.05 |
| ->> Jeff, I agree. Also, asking their budget just sounds to me like saying "well, how much you got?" |
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David Bailey, Photographer
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Dallas / Fort Worth | TX | USA | Posted: 4:02 AM on 11.09.05 |
->> Sounds like you did the right thing. $50 won't even pay for gas to the shoot these days.
I'm guessing that a magazine with 200,000 circulation and a celebrity on the cover probably has more of a budget than $50. If not, they'll probably be out of business before the would get your invoice anyway. |
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Landon Finch, Photographer, Assistant
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Colorado Springs | CO | USA | Posted: 9:12 AM on 11.09.05 |
->> Jeff,
This is the first time I've asked someone "what is your budget?". I did it only after they had turned down my first two offers/rates. I had gone as low as I wanted to go and just wanted to see what kind of money they were willing to spend. If they had come back with something close to my rates, then I would have known they had at least some money for the images. When she came back with the "$50" response, I knew I didn't have to waste any more of my time.
(Thanks for the comments others have sent via email.) |
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Craig Peterson, Photographer
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St. Petersburg | FL | US | Posted: 9:46 AM on 11.09.05 |
->> "In Australia I have discovered it has something to do with hobbyist photographers willing to shoot for next to nothing to get themselves published. I had a prominent sport magazine ask me to shoot a story interstate not long ago. I sent them a quote, and they responded that they saw things a little differently. They thought I would be happy to travel three hours to another city, do half a day's shoot on film, then receive 'payment on publication' of rates up to $US150 for a full page, ranging down to about $50 for a column run. Basically, the best-case outcome for me would have been unlikely to cover my film and fuel, let alone anything else. I told them they had the wrong photographer and wished them luck."
This is the reason I'm thinking of changing careers.
Every year more and more people with D70's and 20D's are coming out of the woodwork and shooting for free because it's "fun" and want access to events or to see their name in print.
I just lost major income shooting high school sports because the studio I worked with elected to hire full timers at $9.00 an hour, rather than pay their contractors what they are worth. Their add in the paper stated, "fun and exiting job!" and "will train". I knew it was coming because they got a contract with Canon, and ordered a bunch of 20D's and lenses. Then one day when I went to drop off an invoice, they had twice as many employees in the studio. The writing was on the wall.
I had not heard from them in three weeks, then they called me out of the blue because they were "in a bind" an needed someone right away to cover a soccer game.
I could have used the money, but I just told them to never call me again. |
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Michael Granse, Photographer
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Urbana | IL | USA | Posted: 10:22 AM on 11.09.05 |
->> People with legitimate budget problems that can not pay the price that we are asking sometimes have friends in similar indsutries who do not have the same financial contraints.
I once had a potential wedding client whose budget made it impossible for her to hire me. I stood my ground and walked away from what would have been a bad deal, but I did it politely, professionaly, and in the process I was as helpful as possible.
Not long after this, I received two phone calls asking about wedding photography. Both calls were from friends of the client who could not afford me, but her friends COULD. I booked BOTH of them because the client that I said "no" to was treated so well that she passed my name on to people who COULD pay. "Jenny said that you were soooooooo nice to her . . ."
Respect works, and if you treat people well enough sometimes they will do nice things for you later when you least expect it.
The flip side is that the person you blow right out of the water with a stinging, though clever, sarcastic remark may pass your name along to people in a way that is not so helpful :) |
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Michael Proebsting, Photographer
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Barrington | IL | USA | Posted: 10:40 AM on 11.09.05 |
->> I have to disagree about not asking what their budget is. By asking what their budget is, you can determine just that and then your counter offer is NOT to lower your price to match, but to see if there is a way you can offer a different set of services to meet their needs.
Example:
Let's say a youth sports team wants you to photograph action shots of everyone on the team, and you charge $600 for this, and provide a cd with complete edited images to them for this. They say their "budget" for this is $450. Instead of dropping your pants and agreeing, you could offer for $450 that you will provide them the unedited cd, saving yourself 1 1/2 or 2 hours that you originally had built into the price for cropping, rotating, fixing shadows, burning cd ect. By finding out their budget, you may be able to services to them that meet their needs, while still being fair to yourself. |
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Tony Scavo, Photographer
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Lemoyne | ohio | USA | Posted: 10:44 AM on 11.09.05 |
->> I agree with most of you about being polite, when i quote someone i do so in a very professional manner ( despite what i tell you here on SS ) These people whom i blow off will NEVER be calling me again anyway. I work in motocross and the people wanting images for free are startup companies who go out with a borrowed coolpix to do their ad after i tell them " no money, no deal " in a year or two they are always gone or bankrupt, i never behave like that with the clients who pay well, in fact i have such a good relationship with those clients that we talk about people who dont pay ( they experience the same things, believe it or not ) and i converse back and forth with one of my editors and we jokingly come up with new ways to blow someone off as a closing to our conversations...to understand what im talking about, work in the Professional Motocross industry for about 6 years like i have.
Lets see how long your intense professional demeanor lasts after that long.
In closing, I AM very much a smartass, its part of my personal charm, but im also very adept and professional and i bust my ass for my client and thats what they appreciate, i wont whine like some photographers might and i wont be wishy washy over a price, the people who know me and use my work can expect A1 quality everytime and they get it...my work speaks for itself, alot of my clients know i speak my mind and they relish that honesty rather than abhore it.
Good luck to you all in this our biggest daily struggle!
Tony Scavo |
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Larry Vaughn, Photographer
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Gainesville | FL | | Posted: 3:13 PM on 11.09.05 |
->> I listened to some negotiation tapes once when I had a real estate license.
One guy, every single time someone gave him a price, objected to the price, no matter what it was. He acted suprised and raised his voice a bit when he objected. Normally, that behaviour resulted in a price reduction or additional services for free.
A couple other things I've learned:
Always act professional. Don't refer to yourself as a starving artist. Wear reasonably nice clothes that fit. Unless you are shooting rappers, wear your underwear on the inside of your pants. No crack of any description.
Use professional looking invoices, typed or printed on a laser printer. Use purchase orders. You can ask if the client uses them in their normal business operation.
Don't get too casual with your clients. Don't swear or use slang. Don't hang around shooting the breeze. Conduct your business and leave. Same idea when shooting the job. Don't date clients. It's ok to be friendly at social events but don't be too familar.
If your client's wife gets involved with the job, be careful. If the job requirements change, submit an invoice for what you have done up to that point and renegotiate for the rest if you have to.
Some on the job feedback: We like Larry because he doesn't try to become a part of the theatre (when I had a theatre contract). He comes and does his job and leaves.
On another job, I was told by the ad agency owner that the client aparently thought I was wasting his money when I was talking to his pr person. Really she was complaining to me about her job and her boss and he wasn't being charged for my time at that point. My client, the ad agency guy, assumed I was trying to get a date with the pr lady, which I wasn't, but I don't think he was convinced.
Estimates. You can give a total price for your services and not break down the price so they can't nitpick it apart.Have a copyright statement on the estimate and the final invoice.
Getting your money up front is best, but otherwise offer a 2% discount if paid in 10 days (2/10 net 30) and add interest if not paid within 30.
Most people won't take advantage of the 2% discount, but it looks professional. |
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Jefferey TenHave, Photographer
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South Gillies | On | Canada | Posted: 11:42 PM on 11.09.05 |
->> Landon..
Well done. I just had the same situation myself. A Canadian motorcycle racing magazine (7,500 circulation) requested 6 images basically for free to accompany year end points. I gave them an initial quote. Expecting a reply for a deal, hence, I quoted on the high side.
The reply was the standard Editor's reply "Our budget will not allow for that much. What kind of package deal can we get?".
My reply was much the same as others "what will your budget allow?" in order to get a sense of seriousness from this Editor.
Editors reply: "To tell you the truth we can pay $160 for all 6 images."
My reply: "The minimum I will accept is $$$ for all 6 images."
Editors reply: "This article is not worthy of photos that expensive". "However, we may use your services for a more worthy project in the future."
My Final reply: Thank You for your time...
I thought of saying something smart "A", but thought better of it. Just maybe something will come out of this yet. |
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Tony Scavo, Photographer
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Lemoyne | ohio | USA | Posted: 12:27 AM on 11.10.05 |
->> Jeffery
you did the exact right thing, this editor was obviously impressed with your ability and wants to do more somehow, his hands are obviously tied on the matter.
After alot of those kinds of back and forth exchanges, you know who wont budge, who will try harder in the future and who just doesnt give a crap and will never pay no matter what the image or how badly they want it.
Good job on playing it smart! |
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Jeff Stanton, Photographer
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Tucson | AZ | USA | Posted: 1:27 AM on 11.10.05 |
->> Instead of dropping your pants and agreeing, you could offer for $450 that you will provide them the unedited cd, saving yourself 1 1/2 or 2 hours that you originally had built into the price for cropping, rotating, fixing shadows, burning cd ect.
I have to respectfully disagree with this advice. First, there is nothing wrong with saying no to a lousy deal. You can politely decline as you indicate that "perhaps we can get together on another deal in the future," or something like that.
I would never, never, never, ever in the whole wide world burn a CD with raw images on it and hand it over to a client. Not on your life!
The quality of your work is expressed through your ability to deliver images that speak for themselves, that say, "a professional shot these." Our photos do not come out of the cameras ready for client delivery. I'm sorry, but amateurs pull stunts like that.
YOU shoot the images. YOU work them in Photoshop and YOU make damned sure they look as freakin' awesome as possible when you deliver them as prints that look great, not a CD where somebody will print image after image after image. |
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Kat Woronowicz, Photographer
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Oceanside | CA | USA | Posted: 2:07 AM on 11.10.05 |
->> Wow, that was an interesting read seeing everyones take on this dilema.
I recently lost two bids last month (one to a lowballer, the other to a stock agency) and it has made me rethink the art of negotiation.
I looked it up:
Negotiate: v. to confer with another person to reach an agreement
I agree that you did the right thing and $50 is a lowball budget. I also agree that you did the right thing to ask what the budget was. Why are clients so reluctant to tell you the truth half the time???
My point is - there are those clients that are only looking at the bottom line - and there are those who are looking for quality work.
I think only the bottom feeders will work well with those minding the bottom line...
So don't take it personally. I think it happens to everyone and you are a better photographer for sticking with your principals. Good for you!
Best,
Kat |
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N. Scott Trimble, Photographer
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Tempe | AZ | USA | Posted: 2:10 AM on 11.10.05 |
->> Good for you Landon, You did the right thing. The responses from everyone here is interesting and highlights one of the many problems our industry suffers from right now, the sheer scope of difference among our approaches.
I have heard from clients over the years about how distrustful they are of photographers because no two are alike in business practice, even comparing them to housing contractors and the soul-wrenching rollercoaster most have taken them (and me!) ON. That is why I wish we could do something to help balance practices all throughout the industry.
I too have professionally declined bids that were too low, only to have it pay itself off in future work that benefitted me well. I have also given the royal finger up the jaxxy (to you Brits, sorry if the spelling is incorrect on that!) to others that I knew no good would come from being nice to their thoughtless and snide offerings nor did I want anything to do with people they knew, and I felt damn good saying it. I think pride in your work is a good thing, by like any tool, it can help and it can hinder. We have to use our wisdom to determine when it is either. |
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Michael Proebsting, Photographer
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Barrington | IL | USA | Posted: 1:26 PM on 11.10.05 |
->> Jeff writes:
"I'm sorry but amateurs pull stunts like that."
Well Jeff, I thought amateurs pull stunts like racking up 110 inappropriate comments on the ss.com message boards. |
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Craig Peterson, Photographer
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St. Petersburg | FL | US | Posted: 2:47 PM on 11.10.05 |
->> I agree with Michael....If you're willing to work with a client, then they can work with you too. Even if that means them spending two hours editing images instead of you.
I have confidence in my work, and have no hang ups about a client seeing my unedited images if that's what the pay warrants. Basically, all they would see is a few OOF images and they would have to rotate verticals, and could crop and color correct as they see fit....I really don't see a problem there. |
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Craig Peterson, Photographer
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St. Petersburg | FL | US | Posted: 3:02 PM on 11.10.05 |
->> BTW Jeff, I think that comment was out of line. Just because you don't agree with someones way of doing business does not give you the right to pass judgement.
You say: "I have to respectfully disagree with this advice." Then, "I'm sorry, but amateurs pull stunts like that." in the same post.....What's up with that? |
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