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Anyone familiar with Jolesch Photography?
Matt Coy, Photographer
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Nicholasville | KY | USA | Posted: 1:33 PM on 09.30.05 |
->> Got a message through Sports Shooter from them about shooting a nearby band competition in October. Just checking to see if anyone had experience working with them.
(http://www.jolesch.com)
Thanks.
-Matt |
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Harrison Shull, Photographer
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Asheville | NC | USA | Posted: 1:49 PM on 09.30.05 |
->> Matt-
Got same email that you did I guess. I responded with questions but the email was never delivered as it timed out at their server. Not sure what they are all about.
Harrison |
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Lyle Waisman, Photographer
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Chicago | IL | USA | Posted: 1:58 PM on 09.30.05 |
->> Nice people, nice company to deal with, they pay quickly.
They expect a full buyout of all your shots, however (which you can read about in posts here, both recent and in the past), whether or not you're willing to work this way is up to you.
I shot a number of events, but realized that there was a significant differential between how much they were willing to pay and how much I thought I deserved (utilizing a Rickman approved cost-of-doing-business breakdown), so no longer work with them.
I think my original contact with them came through my SS page. The work I did for them will cover my SS membership fees for quite some time. |
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Nick Layman, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Albuquerque | NM | | Posted: 1:59 PM on 09.30.05 |
->> Its a company that shoots band or special events for schools. I got an email a while back and emailed them. They have all these requirments for payment. I had a bad feeling and didn't get involved.
Nick |
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Wesley R. Bush, Photographer
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Nashville | TN | U.S. | Posted: 2:11 PM on 09.30.05 |
| ->> I did the same. I sent them my info and then turned down the pay. |
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Alan Look, Photographer
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Bloomington | IL | United States | Posted: 2:59 PM on 09.30.05 |
->> Ditto Wesley. You get $10 just for wearing their shirt, they didn't tell me if I had to buy it or not. Another $10 for showing up an hour early. There were a couple of items I could get "bonus's" for, but overall I wasn't sure I liked the arrangement, so I turned it down.
Maybe I just need to be hungrier. |
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Tom Gannam, Photographer
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St. Louis | MO | USA | Posted: 3:29 PM on 09.30.05 |
->> I have worked for them for 15+ years. started whie at Iowa State University in 1989. Used to be a good gig, you get paid a mimimum against commission for shooting groiups and a flat rate for shooting "action"(basically kids on the field as they perform. The commissions have dropped in recent years and they havn't raised their mileage reimburssment in several years.
Not a bad gig but there are some long days involved. |
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Kent Opdahl, Photographer
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Urbandale | IA | USA | Posted: 4:05 PM on 09.30.05 |
->> They are based out of Des Moines Iowa which is where i live. Good Company but they don't pay their photographers very much. Around here there get high school kids to come in and do it. They wanted me to freelance a couple of years ago for a band weekend. They wanted me to use all of my own eqiupment including my 300mm. I passed on the gig because of what they wanted to pay.
I think for somebody that is just starting out and wants some experience it would be good, But if you don't need that kind of experience. You can be the judge
Good company though. |
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Cecil Copeland, Photographer
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Marietta | Ga | USA | Posted: 4:49 PM on 09.30.05 |
| ->> I was also contacted by them through my SS page. We traded e-mails about some band competitions here around the Atlanta area (and I'm familiar with them - my daughter marched for 4 years for the Grand National Champs of Lassiter High School and they shot a lot of the competitions that Lassiter competed in). But, as others have said, their payment "requirements" left me kinda confused .... I e-mailed them about just paying me a "day rate" for the time I spent shooting for them. I've never heard anymore from them .... |
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Tom Story, Photographer
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Tempe | AZ | USA | Posted: 5:04 PM on 09.30.05 |
->> I shot a couple of jobs for them last year. Simple work, long hours,
not great pay. But they did pay quickly.
I turned down shooting for them again. The reasons were the long
hours (shooting 35 bands in one day). Too much wear and tear on the
gear and not enough mileage money. And not a great payday.
They are good folks to work with. |
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Kevin M. Cox, Photographer, Assistant
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Round Rock (Austin) | TX | US | Posted: 7:23 PM on 09.30.05 |
->> I shot for Jolesch for at least five years. I started when I was in college and only did action shots in the fall at first but started doing group stuff in the spring the last few years.
When I started they supplied all the film and took care of processing and everything. I never saw any of my shots (which bothered me) but was always told I had one of the highest (above 95%) saleable vs. trash ratios of all their shooters. Things were good, the pay wasn't bad for a college kid and they paid consistently. They were always friendly and easy to work with.
By summer 2003 they were looking to begin the transition to digital. For a couple years I was their only shooter at the San Antonio DCI show and in July 2003 they asked me to shoot it digital. After a week or so I was able to negotiate a substantial raise in the day rate based on the switch to digital. It took a few very detailed explanations on the increased cost of doing business using digital vs. film (not to mention all the money they would be saving on film, processing and scanning) we got the go ahead for a trial run (of course I also had to contend with the fact that "other photographers aren't asking for an increase"). At the time I was told this was one of their first events being shot completely digital. Things went well, CDs got burnt and shipped. No problems.
When we got around to the normal fall high school season in September 2003 I got called for scheduling but was only needed for two dates (as opposed to as many as eight in previous years). I'm positive I only got called for dates they couldn't fill with photographers still working for the film rate. After some renewed negotiations I agreed to a sliding scale rate based on the number of bands shot (which would actually work out to more money then on our trial run in July). I shot a BOA event in Houston on 10/22/03, five gigs of photos, 3,135 total for 28 bands in an afternoon. I applied my IPTC data to the images like I do for every assignment and exactly as I had at the July event. (I indicated that the copyright remained mine but granted them a license for image sales and use in advertising and promotional materials.) Their CD burner didn't work on-site so I burnt CDs on my home computer and over-nighted them Monday morning.
The problem arose when I went to fill out the payment request sheet, after the event was over. For five years there had not been a single change in the payment sheet. All of the sudden there was a new section for transfer of copyright. Of course I didn't sign it and crossed it out completely. Here we are two years later and I still don't have the $450 they owe me. They used the images, posted them online for over a year and probably sold plenty.
We had a great working relationship for many years and I feel I was treated very poorly in the end. After several calm and detailed emails they quit responding. I probably should have sued... Sorry for the long post. |
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Julian Jenkins, Photographer
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Meridian | ID | USA | Posted: 12:33 PM on 10.01.05 |
->> Kevin,
That is a bummer, seems like you handled it as fairly as you could.
Julian |
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Justin Casalandra, Photographer
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Cuyahoga Falls | OH | USA | Posted: 3:17 PM on 10.01.05 |
->> I received a SS message from them about 2 months ago to cover a band competition. They wanted me to shoot action of 25 different bands performing. They wanted 100 images from each band during the 15 minutes each band performed. They were only going to pay me $10.00 for each band. That's 2500 images for $250 plus a couple other small incentives! I emailed them back and told them I was concerned about that much wear and tear on my digital gear for such a small pay day. They emailed me back and said they have NEVER had a photographer complain about the use of their own equipment or about the pay. I was told how "dissappointed" they were in me and they also said "to think, we found you on Sports Shooter too." They were dissappointed in me and I didn't even shoot anything for them. I had to ask them a few times to clarify the details of the event and payment before they actually explained it properly. After I got to the bottom of what they needed I told them "No, $10 per 100 images is not in my best interest, especially since they would be selling the images." At the time I did a search on Sports Shooter for their name and didn't come up with anything.
Good luck,
Justin |
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Ed Woo, Photographer
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Long Beach | CA | USA | Posted: 4:28 PM on 10.01.05 |
| ->> I'm glad that I ignored their email. |
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Marc F. Henning, Photographer
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Bentonville | AR | USA | Posted: 6:52 PM on 10.01.05 |
->> i received an email from them a couple of weeks ago. i guess they eventually find people to shoot for them, but i thought the whole idea, pay scale and all, was pretty laughable.
a whole day shooting a marching band competition? i'd rather take photos of myself banging my head against a wall for 8 hours for free.
marc |
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Mark D Murphy, Photographer
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Blue Point | NY | USA | Posted: 7:59 PM on 10.01.05 |
->> Kevin,
Look what they got for your $450. Permenant Bad PR. You could not have better if you paid them. Lets see if they are honorable enough to find you, pay you and put out this PR meltdown.
Or maybe they just dont care...
Just my 2c.
MM |
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Matt Coy, Photographer
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Nicholasville | KY | USA | Posted: 9:35 PM on 10.01.05 |
->> No need to apologize for the long post, Kevin. That kind of detailed stuff is exactly what I wanted to hear from you guys. By the way, thanks to everyone for the insights.
-Matt |
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Ron Scheffler, Photographer
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Hamilton (Toronto area) | Ontario | Canada | Posted: 10:39 PM on 10.01.05 |
->> Maybe I'm missing something here... but just to play devil's advocate, back in the film days everyone gave them the film, never saw the results and were paid. Jolesch had sole control over the images and the copyright issue didn't seem to be a factor.
Along comes digital and suddenly they are demanding something different? I'd say not. They are clarifying the situation that already existed in the film days. I'm sure if you were in their position you'd do the same thing because you know as well as I, that the photographer will keep a duplicate set of files. Without a written agreement, what's to keep the photographer from turning around and trying to sell those images to the bands? |
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Mark Loundy, Photo Editor
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San Jose | CA | USA | Posted: 3:54 AM on 10.03.05 |
->> Ron,
What's different is that photographers are becoming more educated about business matters. Jolesch's business model has apparently been based on photographers remaining ignorant.
What's to keep the photographer from turning around and trying to sell those images to the bands? A non-compete agreement is the usual way.
--Mark |
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Will Duncan, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Johnson City | TN | USA | Posted: 9:52 AM on 10.03.05 |
| ->> I recieved an email, agreed initially upon the schedule and pay which they couldnt provide at the time, they didnt contact me again till less than a week before the event which just wasnt possible for me. It's hard for me to provide my own gear though, which they said I would have to do...I'm in college, a 70-200 f4 took me long enough to save up for. And it's useless at under stadium lights. I take any work I can get though, but I have limits too. Sounds like they would have been borderline on those limits. |
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Nadine Redd, Photographer
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Kansas City | KS | USA | Posted: 1:53 PM on 10.03.05 |
->> I too was contacted by them for a band competition last weekend and thanks to SS I knew enough to turn them down based on their pay rate etc. Howver I did counter propose a day rate and they turned me down.
I will be honest if I had not learned what I did from this website I probably would have taken them up on the gig. I am desperate for money but I knew if I accepted, this is what is draining photographer's worth.
Once again I thank SS for the education. |
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Julian Jenkins, Photographer
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Meridian | ID | USA | Posted: 3:23 PM on 10.03.05 |
->> Nadine-
Amen, thank the ss.com gods for creating this site!!
Keep up the great work! |
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Jeff Barrie, Photographer
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Indianapolis | IN | USA | Posted: 3:48 PM on 10.03.05 |
->> I too received the same email and didn't respond. It just sounded like it wasn't a good deal for the amount of work involved.
Today I received another email from a group called brightroom.com. They have a marathon event coming in a couple of weeks here in Indy. Has anyone had any experience with this company?
thanks in advance
Jeff |
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Michael Jordan, Photographer
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West Palm Beach | FL | USA | Posted: 4:45 PM on 10.03.05 |
->> Wow, I think I'm the only one who has not recieved an e-mail from these guys! The only SS e-mail I get are from lost fans of the real "MJ" wondering what I do with my extra shoes or if i'll sign something for them :(
Mike |
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Richard Rector, Photographer
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Sammamish | WA | US | Posted: 4:53 PM on 10.03.05 |
->> Jeff,
I've worked with brightroom the last couple of years. Good company and the pay is decent (and sent in a timely manner, imagine that). |
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Wesley R. Bush, Photographer
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Nashville | TN | U.S. | Posted: 5:19 PM on 10.03.05 |
| ->> Brightroom is fair. Usually only 3.5-4.5 hours, but decent people that you don't leave you wondering about receiving a check on time. I shot for them probably 5 or 6 times this summer. |
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Jeff Barrie, Photographer
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Indianapolis | IN | USA | Posted: 6:48 PM on 10.03.05 |
->> Ok thanks. Their email seemed pretty good but, I have done one of these marathons before and waited 6 months or better to be paid but, it was for a different company.
Oh and MJ, can I get you to sign a poster for me? :) |
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Ron Scheffler, Photographer
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Hamilton (Toronto area) | Ontario | Canada | Posted: 7:18 PM on 10.03.05 |
->> Mark:
I have absolutely no disagreement with photographers becoming better educated about business practices and feel this site has been very helpful. My point was more along the line that it's unrealistic to expect Jolesch to change their business practices established during the film days... though if enough people read this, word spreads and more turn them down, maybe Jolesch will be forced to reconsider their policies to at least better compensate photographers.
Jeff:
http://www.sportsshooter.com/message_display.html?tid=8874
brightroom operates very similarly to what I've read above about Jolesch. As I hinted at in that link, they have unfortunately been consistent in indirectly cutting pay rates by eliminating reimbursement for various tasks/expenses. Since that post, the changes for 2005 have been a 15% cut in the non-lead photographer rate to $50/hr and the clock starting at the race start time rather than the pre-race meeting time (which cuts at least another 30 minutes). It'll be a WFH situation and you are expected to get as many shots of the runners as possible. If it's a marathon, be prepared to shoot a lot, in the range of several thousand images depending on the size of the field and where you are located (bring a monopod, even if only using a 70-200). Depending on who else is shooting the event for them, and since you are coming on as a new photographer, you'll likely be released from the event sooner than some of the 'veterans'. That is one of the responsibilities of the lead photographer - to keep photographers on for only as long as absolutely necessary. As Wesley points out above, it might get you 3-4 hours while the guys who stick around to the end will typically average 6 hours for a marathon. It's mass production photography with the goal being to get at least one photo of each participant, though hopefully several images from various areas on the course. Certainly they appreciate the effort some put in to produce quality images.... however take a look through galleries from past races on their site to get an idea of what others are producing. They typically pay quickly, within two weeks. If you take the event, make sure that when you are cut that the lead photographer downloads your images to his computer. Since there is no longer a fee paid for your time to burn and ship CDs, it's in your interest to have the leader do this for you.
I hope this information gives you a fair idea of what to expect. |
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Thomas Oed, Photographer
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San Diego | CA | USA | Posted: 7:53 PM on 10.03.05 |
->> I've never dealt with Jolesch, but it sounds pretty much the same as some gigs I worked for a company out of Sarasota, Florida called Encore Photo. They do some marching bands as well, but the bulk of their business is cheerleading.
Similar long hours, crazy pounding on your gear, crappy pay, and no reimbursements for things like airport parking, or transportation to and from your home airport. You get nickle-and-dimed to death by these people.
I worked for them quite a bit a couple of years ago during a few months when I was unemployed from the 'day job', so I wasn't in much of a position to turn down work, and continued occasionally some weekends once I was back working again. After awhile, though, I realized how bad the deal was for me, compared to the long hours, lack of reimbursement for stuff like downloading and burning time, etc. The last straw was when they changed their payment policies mid-season (to their benefit, of course) and effectively shorted me on the last two jobs I worked for them, even though the contract we had signed for that year stated that I should have been paid at the old rate.
If anyone is ever contacted by Encore, I'd recommend you follow the same advice being given above about Jolesch.
As an aside, I shot one Triathlon for Brightroom a couple years back, and from what I saw, they DO seem quite a bit better.
-T- |
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Peter Gaby, Photographer
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Madison | WI | US | Posted: 2:01 AM on 10.07.05 |
->> I was contacted last year by Jolesch, and had similar thoughts, turned them down for the same reasons.
wondering why I haven't been contacted by them yet this year. |
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Alan Rogers, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Carbondale | IL | USA | Posted: 9:04 PM on 10.19.05 |
| ->> I just agreed to shoot a weekend event in St. Louis for Jolesch, hopefully it wasn't a mistake. $600 for a weekend is a little more tempting for those of us working at student dalies... |
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Mark D Murphy, Photographer
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Long Island | NY | USA | Posted: 7:04 AM on 10.21.05 |
->> At Jolesch, it appears they are listening and watching this site. I sent them an email on Kevin Cox's complaint when the thread started.
Mr. Alan Parker,
One of our member photographers, Mr. Kevin Cox of Austin Texas, appears to be owed $450. by your company for photographer services.
http://www.sportsshooter.com/message_display.html?tid=17601
This sort of thing, on a Photographers Website, is buying your tons of Negative PR.
Please take care of it. Looking forward to a positive outcome for all.
Respectfully,
Mark D. Murphy
Blue Point, NY 11715
http://www.mmurphyphoto.com
>From: alan.parker@jolesch.com
>To: mdmadv@hotmail.com
>Subject: An email from SportsShooter.com viewer: Alan Parker
>Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 22:24:14 -0400 (EDT)
>
>This is a message sent from your SportsShooter.com member page at: http://www.sportsshooter.com/mmurphyphoto
>
>----------------------------------
>Sender: Alan Parker
>Phone: 954-849-9035
>Email: alan.parker@jolesch.com
>----------------------------------
>This user's message:
>
>Hi Mark,
>
>I care.
>
>Please let me know what happen and I'll try to fix the situiation.
>
>Thank you.
>
>
> |
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Alan Look, Photographer
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Bloomington | IL | United States | Posted: 5:57 PM on 10.21.05 |
->> I just got an email from Mr. Parker at Jolesch. He believes that I was given incorrect information. So, I dug up the old email. Here is what I was offered...
_____________________________________________________
Alan: This is work for hire, you freelance for us, we keep the rights.
Here is our pay information:
1. Be on site 1 hour before scheduled start time
2. Check in with the lead group photographer & get your supplies
3. Be properly attired - no blue jeans, prefer khaki w/Jolesch
shirt or red shirt
4. Images sent to Jolesch Photography within 48 hours
5. Make sure your images are on the CD you send to Jolesch
Photography
By just accomplishing the above 5 items, you earn $50.00. Each of
these 5 items are worth $10.00, and you will be deducted accordingly if
you fail to do any one of the 5.
Each group photographed regardless of the size, you earn $10.00.
An award ceremony is considered a group.
The norm for Jolesch Photography is 20-30 bands at an event.
Which calculates as follows: $50.00 + 200.00 ($10.00/per band) =
$250.00 Mileage is .25/mile (the difference between this amount and the
government amount can be claimed on your taxes)
When you download, we ask for ½ meg file, do NOT edit or number, we
do not want a large file.
The goal is to try to get as many individual photos as possible, DO
NOT USE FLASH, keep your 200 lense (or larger if you have one) fully
extended, we want images from the knee up, trying not to get "line"
photos, or photos of the participant standing.
The event in Normal has about 40 bands. Let me know!
Thanks, Cammy
Jolesch Photography
______________________________________________________
I just want to set the record straight. Everyone should be encourage to asses their own situation and determine if this works for them.
Save a Tree, Buy a Picture Book
AL |
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Justin Casalandra, Photographer
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Cuyahoga Falls | OH | USA | Posted: 6:08 PM on 10.21.05 |
->> Alan L,
That looks just like the email I got from them too. The only difference was that they wanted 100 images per band or your pay would be deducted accordingly. You don't need to be hungrier, they do.
Justin |
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Devin Dahlgren, Photographer
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Everett | WA | USA | Posted: 7:00 PM on 10.21.05 |
->> I'm shooting for them tomorrow. I'm always wanting to learn how other companies work. So I'll take the $250 and come home a better deal in knowledge. I'll keep you posted.
Devin |
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Alan Rogers, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Carbondale | IL | USA | Posted: 1:06 AM on 10.26.05 |
| ->> Shot for them over the weekend. Made around $500 and they put me up in a nice hotel for a night... nice people but the whole system is a little strange. Don't think my gear could handle the wear and tear if I made a habit out of it. |
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Greg Ferguson, Photographer
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Scottsdale | Az | USA | Posted: 9:31 PM on 10.26.06 |
->> They're sending out offers to photographers again/still. I consider their offer SPAM, and told them so. They might be great people but their offer isn't realistic, especially when they want to grab the copyrights.
"We specialize in High School marching
band competitions. We just added another one to our schedule, for
10/28, very short notice, yes! We provide both group & action
photography, and we are looking for 2 action shooters to photograph
individual band members during their 15 miinute performance. It's
a big shoot, with 34 bands participating, runs from about 7 am till
6pm. There are breaks & lunch throughout the day. Pay for the
event is $390. Requires digital with 200 zoom lens.[...]"
For appox. 9-10 hours of work, plus wear and tear on my gear, plus the time prepping images to send, it wouldn't pay anywhere close to what my time is worth. |
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Daniel Berman, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Seattle | WA | US | Posted: 1:41 PM on 10.31.06 |
->> I shot for them this past weekend, photographing 30 bands over a nearly 10 hour work day. It was a tremendous amount of wear and tear on my gear, but I went into it as a learning process like Mr. Dalhgren mentioned last year. I learned that while I am fine with the workload, I am not comfortable with the low pay based on the effort I put in. Oh well -- live and learn right?
Daniel |
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Rob Bradley, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Raleigh | NC | USA | Posted: 2:15 PM on 10.31.06 |
| ->> They wanted me to photograph something this saturday. Origianlly they said it was noon-9:30, then after I accepted they said 10a-10:45p. In addition, I read this thread this morning, and for all the above reasons, just sent them an email telling them they could pay me $75/hr or find another photog. Thanks SS |
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Mike Shepherd, Photographer
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Wichita | KS | USA | Posted: 3:11 PM on 10.31.06 |
->> daniel,
you learned and they lived off one more photographer willing to do it at least one time "just to check it out." they'll keep going after those "first-time shooters" until there aren't any left and then, maybe, they will change the terms of their agreement. however, how long will it be before they've exhausted their potential employment pool? too long, i'm afraid.
just say no to bad deals.
mike |
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Jeremy Drey, Photographer
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Reading | PA | USA | Posted: 3:48 PM on 10.31.06 |
->> I had been contacted well in advance for an upcoming shoot this coming weekend and then the following weekend. I am a recent poor graduate and need to do something with my time and need the money.
But I failed to search the SS posts about the company before agreeing to the terms but still haven't received much more information about the upcoming weekend.
Waiting for contact but will post my adventures on Monday. Hopefully incident free.
Jeremy |
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Michael Fischer, Photographer
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Spencer | Ia | USA | Posted: 8:50 AM on 11.01.06 |
->> They contacted me about 3 months ago for a band competition that was one hour's drive. I responded politely with a rate that I considered more than fair - and I believe it was Cammy that responded that "that's a pretty high rate".
I politely responded that the rate was actually a deal and listed what they wanted, the time it would take and what the costs were.
I concluded the email with the statement that the rate was more than fair; that if they were interested in continuing the discussion to drop me a email.
Needless to say, I never heard back. They're free to operate any business model they want and I'm guessing that the reason they pay so little is that it's a crap shoot for print orders - how many parents are actually aware that there are images of their kids? In other words, the business model is a bit creaky in the first place.
Of course, if you're using inexperienced high school shooters, that can impact the number and size of your reprint orders, too .. :) :) :)
Michael |
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Jeff Fusco, Photographer
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Philadelphia | PA | USA | Posted: 9:54 PM on 11.08.06 |
->> Well, I just received a email with anoffer from them to shoot 50 marching bands from 7:30 Am until 11 PM for "around $550".
Granted, I do not shoot events as a business model and I know there are more than a few highly successful shooters here doing well in that business, but $550 seems a bit low. Granted its $550 you did not have when you woke, but I would imagine that much shooting would be a tough thing to pull off. Each band has 15 minutes, how does one expect to get shots of most of the kids in each band in 15 minutes? How many frames would you fire, 2500-3000 ? I am not a rapid fire shooter, I would think I would have a nervous breakdown by nites end !! |
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Lane Christiansen, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Carbondale | IL | USA | Posted: 10:09 PM on 11.08.06 |
| ->> I shot a band competition for them. Nice company. I would do another if they asked me. Don't get me wrong, I would rather be doing freelance with newspapers but considering I am a poor college student it is a nice cushion. They paid me fast too. |
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Cliff Lawson, Photographer
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Parker | CO | USA | Posted: 1:15 AM on 11.11.06 |
->> I have shot for them and all things considered it is not that bad a deal. I use my "retired" D100 (not worth using the D2X for a half meg file and 3000 shots).
In three days last month I made a bit over $1300 and they pay fast. For me it is a reasonable gig - I'm retired and shoot the events I want to shoot and turn down what I don't want. They pay for the hotel and OK mileage. I suppose part of it is that I really LIKE shooting the bands. Having a been a band member waaaay back in HS, I enjoy the music and watching the kids - even if it is through a viewfinder.
It also helps that the other shooter they hire is fun to work with and we have a good time. It is not for everyone, but the company is honest and up-front with you and they pay fast.
I don't care about the rights in this instance as what would I do with 3000 low-quality band images? They are welcome to them. When you are done for the (long) day, you are really done - no PS work, no uploading, no nothing - done. |
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