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Pocketwizards and Strobes Setup...
Brian Ray, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Austin | TX | USA | Posted: 2:02 AM on 07.06.05 |
->> Ok, after a rather exhaustive research session through the archives and other info on SS, I have learned that it is not possible to use one PW Plus transmitter to simultaneously fire a remote camera and arena strobes, each with separate PW Plus receivers due to the lag time on the camera firing...even when the camera is wired with an always-on pretrigger switch. The first solution I saw mentioned was to put one receiver on the camera, and then wire the strobes to the camera with a pc sync cord. This would be nice but not feasible for me as the camera and strobes will be a good distance apart, I'd rather run it wireless. The second solution mentioned was to use the more expensive PW Multimaxes, since they can automatically compensate for the lag time. Since I'm a student and don't want to spend ALL of my summer internship salary on the PW setup for next basketball season, is it possible to use one PW Plus transmitter to fire a PW Multimax transceiver on the remote camera, which would in turn fire a PW Plus receiver on the strobes? If so I'd get off the hook buying only one Multimax transceiver, which would be nice. So, before I drop a chunk of change, anyone ever used this setup? Will it work? Thanks in advance for the help!
PS - If the answer is yes, I'm in the market for a Multimax transceiver, and a pw plus transmitter and receiver...new or used... |
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Shawn Cullen, Assistant
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San Diego | CA | USA | Posted: 2:19 AM on 07.06.05 |
->> Yes and Yes.
Follow this link. On the far right colum, at the bottom, click on "MultiMax Operating Essentails". On the left side of the new page, click on "Relay Mode". This will give you step by step instructions, with pictures, on how to set it up. |
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Thom Kendall, Photographer, Assistant
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Easthampton | MA | USA | Posted: 9:08 AM on 07.06.05 |
->> Brian,
Are you talking about firing JUST the remote cam/strobes, or the remote AND your handheld camera with strobes all at once?
The first scenario is definitely possible, and the second is not, 'cause you'd need to delay the handheld camera a fraction to synch with the remote, which can only be done with a MultiMax.
Another possibility utilizing a PW Plus set and a PW MultiMax would be to: set up your remote on the opposite end of the floor (which is the preferred scenario anyway, unless you've got FlashWizards, 30 remotes and multiple assistants like SI); attach the Plus transmitter to your handheld camera hot shoe; set the Plus transmitter and Plus receiver to channel 1 to trigger the strobes; set up the PW MultiMax to relay mode, (receiving on channel 4 to fire the remote camera, and transmitting on channel 1, the previously chosen strobe channel). Then, simply switch the "handheld" PW transmitter to channel 4 when action is in the far end, triggering the remote with the test button, and switch back to channel 1 when the action heads back to the near end. It's a bit awkward, but the channel switch on the Plus units is an "analog" switch, so toggling back and forth is pretty easy. I suggest channel combo 1/4, 'cause all you have to do is slam the switch to the opposite end of the range, so you can do it without looking...
Regarding the price...You're still looking @ over $600.00 for the Plus set (approx. $300.00/new) and a MultMax (approx. $275.00/new), and a pre-trigger cord (either PW or third-party). Fun, but expensive!
I hope this was at least "remotely" helpful! ;)
Thom |
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Chris Livingston, Photographer
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Orlando | FL | United States | Posted: 9:27 AM on 07.06.05 |
->> Brian,
Well I think I might be able to save you money on this scenario if you only want to fire the remote and not both handheld and remote. If you already have one PW+ Trans and two PW+ Rec. all you need to buy is one more PW+ Trans.
Here's how it will work:
- Strobes have a PW+ Rec. set to channel 1
- Remote camera has a PW+ Rec. set to channel 2 and plugged into camera's motodrive port.
- Remote camera has a PW+ Trans. set to channel 1 and placed on the camera's hot shoe.
- To fire remote camera simply switch the PW+ Trans. for your handheld from channel 1 to channel 2.
If you are trying to fire both cameras with the lights you will need more money. You'll need four PW Max to fire the system. One for each camera, one for the strobes and one to trigger the system.
The instruction booklet for the Max says that you can fire this system with three but I never got it to work consistantly. It worked best with four. Good luck. |
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Brian Ray, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Austin | TX | USA | Posted: 10:00 PM on 07.06.05 |
->> Awesome, thanks for the help guys. I should have checked the pocketwizard site right off the bat.
....must...get....more...sleep.... |
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Thomas E. Witte, Photographer
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Cincinnati | OH | USA | Posted: 10:51 PM on 07.06.05 |
->> Funny that I just found this thread. I was driving in the car today brain storming something totally different but I think it will work with this too. I have no idea why I didn't think of this earlier.
A few years ago when they blew up the old Riverfront Stadium in Cincinnati I put together a quad head drive cable (which never ended up being used anyway). It was designed to fire four cameras simultaneously. Now I want to modify it to have a built in delay between cameras.
I know they make delay timers that operate in one second increments but I sort of need to snif around for one down in the millisecond range. Once I started thinking about milliseconds a light bulb went off above my head bright enough to singe my already missing hair.... SO long as these things are cheap - and I can't see them being difficult at all to splice in to a cable - it should theoretically be rather simple to make a delay timer bridge that can be inserted or removed from your zip line. Once I find and buy a few to tinker with I'll see how it works and let you know.
To explain this to the folks who haven't a clue what I'm talking about the problem with firing a remote camera in conjunction with remote strobes is that the camera's shutter lag isn't even over yet while the strobes have already fired. If you know the camera has an 80ms delay, then technically installing an 80ms delay timer in the zip line would sync the two up. The key word is "technically". |
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Thomas E. Witte, Photographer
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Cincinnati | OH | USA | Posted: 10:57 PM on 07.06.05 |
| ->> And to further explain... A delay timer is a little device that delays an impulse. I'm not precisely sure how they work but the impulse comes in one end, get's held up by the impulse cops for a certain amount of time and then continues on it's merry way out the other end. I'm sure there are some wacky electrical engineering terms for all the doo dads inside, but that's your "Electronic gadgetry for nincompoops" lesson for today. |
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Brian Ray, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Austin | TX | USA | Posted: 2:50 AM on 07.07.05 |
->> Thomas,
Check out http://relays.tycoelectronics.com/time_delay.asp .
I don't know enough about electronics to have any idea if those are even remotely close to the right thing but I thought maybe you'd have a better idea. For all I know they're giant pieces of military hardware. Anyways, let me know what you find out, your idea sounds interesting and who knows it might work.
Brian |
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Shawn Cullen, Assistant
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San Diego | CA | USA | Posted: 9:55 PM on 07.07.05 |
->> Nick,
Thanks for the link. As you can see it was late and I still have not recovered from last week. It was great to meet you and hopefully we can get together soon.
Shawn |
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Thom Kendall, Photographer, Assistant
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Easthampton | MA | USA | Posted: 10:33 PM on 07.07.05 |
->> Thomas,
Can't you set up several MultiMax units to do what you were trying to do? The SpeedCycler function will allow you to fire cameras or strobes one after the other @ preset intervals...
Thom |
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Thomas E. Witte, Photographer
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Cincinnati | OH | USA | Posted: 11:01 PM on 07.07.05 |
->> Thom- I don't use the multimaxes. I'm still attached to my tried and true classics. Besides that there is always the risk of a receiver failing from either being left on by accident and having week batteries, not picking up a strong signal on one channel, being subject to interference... It doesn't happen that often, but I don't like to gamble when I'm spending that much time and effort for a shot like the stadium. So it would seem suicidal putting all my faith in one receiver right? That's why I built the cable to have twin PW jacks for redundancy.
Brian- Those are what I'm talking about, but that site is designed like crap. I clicked on a few items and they are larger than what I've seen before, but they were also ones that are designed for industrial uses like air conditioners and what not. I've seen one before that was about the size of an AA battery. When I get back from vacation I'll look in to it more. |
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Brian Jackson, Photographer, Photo Editor
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South San Francisco | CA | USA | Posted: 12:39 PM on 07.08.05 |
| ->> Thomas- Check out http://www.jameco.com All sorts of electronic goodies. Sorry, I don't have a direct link to the delay timers, but I've bought several things from them. I do have the luxury of stopping by their warehouse as well as they're around the corner :) |
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Robert Leverton, Photographer
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Ellicott City | MD | USA | Posted: 2:22 PM on 07.08.05 |
->> I use a delay timer built by Woods Electronics. The company specializes in high-speed photography and the specific unit Thomas is looking for is called "ADDJust a sec" Specs is below. I've used it to sync a milk droplet in mid splash. I suspect it should have no problem helping you compensate for camera lag. Cost $99
From the site: The ADDjust A Sec. adds a delay between when the Shutter-Beam detects the subject and when your camera or strobe is fired. This delay is continuously adjustable from 100 uS (0.0001 seconds) up to 2 seconds. This delay allows the subject to move a little before the picture is taken. |
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Jonas Carlson, Photographer
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Stockholm | SE | Sweden | Posted: 3:03 PM on 11.21.05 |
->> I have tried to figure out how to set up my cameras/strobes with the info supplied here on SS and on PW.com. But unfortunately I canīt quite get it to work.
My setup is currently:
1 PW+ transmitter
1 PW+ reciever
2 PW multimax.
I use a D2h in my hand and a D1 as a remote behind the backboard, I also strobe the gym with a couple of Bowens 500 strobes.
And the thing is that I want to trigger both the remote and the handheld camera together with the strobes.
Should I replace the PW+ with a multimax unit or can I configure the setup to work anyway? Thankīs in advance. |
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Darren Whitley, Photographer
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Maryville | MO | USA | Posted: 3:56 PM on 11.21.05 |
| ->> You could hardwire a trigger cord to your camera shutter and then use the PW transmitter to set off your strobes. |
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George Bridges, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Washington | DC | USA | Posted: 4:06 PM on 11.21.05 |
->> Jonas,
Do you want to trigger both cameras at the same time in sync with the strobes, or do you simply want both to be able to fire the strobes?
the second scenario may be possible with your set up with some playing around, the first scenario is almost impossible. |
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Jonas Carlson, Photographer
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Stockholm | SE | Sweden | Posted: 5:15 PM on 11.21.05 |
->> George, I want to trigger both cameras at the same time in sync with the strobes.
Now I put one reciever on each strobe and use the PW+ transmitter to fire them off. The Remote camera doesnīt sync with the strobes.
Should I use only one Multimax for the strobes and hardwire them together and use the slower camera (D1) as remote with a multimax.
Or the D2h wich is faster? Or can it be solved with a third Multimax?
And using the SB800 on the remote behind the backboard is out of the question? |
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George Bridges, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Washington | DC | USA | Posted: 7:23 PM on 11.21.05 |
->> Jonas,
using a flash behind the backboard will get you thrown out after 1 frame!
I'll e-mail some details what you want to do is complicated and with your set up probably not too well but we'll see what we can do. |
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Shawn Cullen, Assistant
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San Diego | CA | USA | Posted: 10:00 PM on 11.21.05 |
->> Jonas,
I hate to deliver the bad news but this set up you want to do is not going to work! The Nikon D1 has an issue with its lag time. It is variable and can change up to 12 miliseconds. This means you would have to slow the shutter speed down to about 60th of a second. LPA (PocketWizard) designed a chip that is implanted into the D1 to correct this lag time issue. I do not belive they offer this service any more but you can contact them to find out. If I remember correctly is was about $800, and Nikon does not cover this under warranty.
If you had 2 D2H's this could work. The D2H is very consistant with it's lag time. |
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George Bridges, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Washington | DC | USA | Posted: 11:02 PM on 11.21.05 |
->> In my e-mail I explained how to test the lag time and that to do it with MultiMax units the shutter speed would be too slow for sports action. It can be done, just not effectively for action.
Now, with Flash Wizard II units....... |
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Shawn Cullen, Assistant
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San Diego | CA | USA | Posted: 11:50 PM on 11.21.05 |
| ->> It still will not work with the Flash Wizards II. The problem is with the camera. The Flash Wizards only work if the cameras you are using all have very consistant lag times. Each camera can not vary by more than 1 millisecond, unless it has a leaf shutter. The Flash WIzard II's do not make the camera lag time better. |
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Jonas Carlson, Photographer
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Stockholm | SE | Sweden | Posted: 3:43 AM on 11.22.05 |
->> Hi all, thankīs alot for your input.(George, thank you for your excellent mail) It helped alot.
I think I will have to hardwire the remote D1 until I have upgraded to a D2x. And then give it another try with the D2h behind the backboard.
Currently sportsphoto is a hobby for me since a have a day-job, and in Sweden there are 3 major image-agencies that sell to all newspapers so itīs almost impossible to sell images.
We have a lot of indoor sports but NONE of the photographers except me are strobing arenas or mounting backboard-cams at basketball. So I am trying to "raise the bar" for sportsshooting in cold Scandinavia. :-) . I am also on hunt for a netcam for icehockey. |
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Dirk Dewachter, Photographer
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Playa Del Rey | CA | USA | Posted: 1:36 PM on 01.25.06 |
->> I have two PW multimaxes and two PW plus receivers. I read the PW multimax manual's portion on the relay mode and several of the posts within this thread. Like others on this thread, I was trying to set up a remote camera that would be triggered by another PW and then have that remote camera trigger the strobes.
The PW Multimax manual said to put a PW multimax on the hotshoe in the receive mode on the frequency you want to use to trigger the camera and to set the transmit mode to a channel on which you want to trigger the strobes. So, I followed the instructions, using one PW Multimax on the remote camera hotshoe, one multimax as the triggering unit and the strobes were set on one of the four channels of the PW Plus receiver. When triggering the camera I could see the PW Multimax in the hotshoe switch from receive to transmit in the relay mode but the strobes wouldn't trigger.
What am i doing wrong here? The manual did say that one should use channels 22 and 20 for the relay mode but since I only have two PW Multimax and two PW Plus receivers I can't test to see if I need all PW Multimaxes. Does it only work with three multimaxes set to channels 22 and 20 or can it be done with a combo of PW multimaxes and plus receivers.
I was able to make it work with using a PW PLus receiver to trigger the camera as a receiver with the pre-trigger cable and have a PW Multi on the hotshoe to trigger the lights.
Any feedback will be appreciated. |
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Roland Simmons, Photographer
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Hillsboro(Portland) | OR | USA | Posted: 1:53 PM on 01.25.06 |
->> Dirk, this is the way it was explained to me by Scott Gardner....
"With the pocket wizard setup, I would use the Plus transmitter on the camera I'm holding and the remote camera with the MultiMax (set to relay mode - receive channel 2 and transmit channel 1) and the strobes connected to the Plus receiver (for example, channel 1). You will need a pocket wizard remote cord to attach the MultiMax to fire the remote camera but place it in the hotshoe connector to fire the strobes. You then fire the handheld camera and shoot normally and when you want to fire the remote, switch the PW Plus transmitter to channel 2 and hit the test button to fire the remote camera. You'll need more transmitters if you want to do it any differently."
I have 1 multimax, 1 plus receiver, 1 plus transmitter. I did it his way and it worked. |
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Shawn Cullen, Assistant
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San Diego | CA | USA | Posted: 5:34 PM on 01.25.06 |
->> Dirk,
Is the pre-release cord plugged into the camera, and is the camera firing when you push the test button on your triggering unit? The Multimax will switch to Transmitt, but it will not transmitt unless it receives a sync pluse from the camera.
It does not matter the channels you use, 20-22 have a little better signal than the others, according to LPA. |
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Tim Gasperak, Photographer
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San Francisco | CA | USA | Posted: 6:48 PM on 06.16.06 |
->> Hi. I wanted to unearth this thread because I've been having the same difficulties that Dirk described. I set up my kit just as Thomas describes at the top of this thread: I have a local Nikon D2Hs with a PW+ transmitter set to channel 1 or 4. I have a remote Nikon D2X with a PW Max on the hotshoe set to relay mode, receive channel 4, transmit channel 1. A pre-trigger cord is connected to the camera and the correct port on the Max. Then I have a remote strobe(s) connected to a PW+ receiver, set to channel 1.
To test things out, when I set the PW Max on the remote camera to transmit mode and trigger it, both the shutter and the remote flash fire as expected. So far so good. But if I switch the remote back to relay mode and set the local camera to channel 4 and hit the Test button to accomplish the same thing remotely, the remote camera won't fire, even when I can see the PW Max acknowledge the signal. For some reason the remote camera isn't firing when it receives the signal from the local PW.
Am I missing something? Currently I have the remote camera flash synch set to plain old 1/250 (not auto FP mode).
Thanks for the help. |
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Tim Gasperak, Photographer
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San Francisco | CA | USA | Posted: 7:30 PM on 06.16.06 |
| ->> Nothing like going over your setup *after* you make a public post and realize you've got the mini-phone connector going into the wrong port on the remote Pocket Wizard. So, false alarm: all is well. Thanks anyway. |
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