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|| SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board
remote cam, getting started
Henry Hsu, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Los Angeles | CA | USA | Posted: 7:40 AM on 12.20.04 |
->> Hi.
My question is about which transmitter to use. I know about the baseplate. I've searched the form and I think I might have missed the thread concerning this info. Please advise me on which transmitter works the best and is affordable. Thank you all! |
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Thom Kendall, Photographer, Assistant
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Easthampton | MA | USA | Posted: 8:33 AM on 12.20.04 |
->> Henry,
THE standard remote trigger set-up is the Pocket Wizard, either the Plus set (consisting of dedicated transmitter/receiver units), or the MultiMax (which can function as either a transmitter or receiver, or both[!] depending on how you want to configure it)
My suggestion is the MultiMax, if your budget can accommodate it.
http://www.pocketwizard.com/
Good Luck,
Thom |
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Henry Hsu, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Los Angeles | CA | USA | Posted: 10:08 AM on 12.20.04 |
| ->> Thanks alot for your input Thom. |
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Henry Hsu, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Los Angeles | CA | USA | Posted: 10:14 AM on 12.20.04 |
->> this is probably a silly question to some of you.
What is a "pre-trigger cable"? |
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Henry Hsu, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Los Angeles | CA | USA | Posted: 10:17 AM on 12.20.04 |
| ->> and also.. I really need to learn to have a complete thought before I post any fragments... if I get the multimax, it comes with ONLY one right? I need to get two to get the thing rolling? Or. Can I get one multimax and get a bunch of recievers? |
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Vern Verna, Photographer
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taylors (Greenville) | SC | United States | Posted: 10:20 AM on 12.20.04 |
->> a pre trigger keeps the camera "awake" or the same as keeping ur finger presssed down on the trigger half way. it eats battery but the camera shoots virtually immediately and consistently which is awesome for remotes.
by the way aas a note to all of u guys wanting to put up remotes use a safety cable so they dont fall on someone head. i have had two super clamps break this year luckily as i was mounting equipment and not during a game. |
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Vern Verna, Photographer
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taylors (Greenville) | SC | United States | Posted: 10:28 AM on 12.20.04 |
| ->> u need a transmitter to fire the camera and a receiver to take that signal and fire the cam. if u r on strobes u then need a transmitter to take the sync cord from out of the cam and another reciever to fire the strobes. or a multimax will serve as a receiver to fire the camera and a transmitter (relay mode) to fire the strobe. so then u would need a transmiter to fire the cam, a multimax as a receiver on the cam to fire it then relay the signal for the flash, and then a third pw to receive the flash to fire the strobes. by the way guys u can do all this without pw's by hardwiring everything. that is the way we did everything till the past few years when the pw was invented lol. |
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Matthias Krause, Photographer
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Brooklyn | NY | USA | Posted: 10:32 AM on 12.20.04 |
| ->> Henry, you might want to check the message board archives as well as the newsletter archives. Plenty of material there. |
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Thomas E. Witte, Photographer
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Cincinnati | OH | USA | Posted: 12:23 PM on 12.20.04 |
->> If you really researched this topic on Sports Shooter, you would have noticed the ubiquitous use (and mention) of Pocket Wixards.
If a couple hundred bucks is to much for you, make a hardwire. |
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Allan Campbell, Photographer, Assistant
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Salem (Portland) | OR | USA | Posted: 1:27 PM on 12.20.04 |
->> Henry I have been researching the same thread. Here are a few I tagged.
THIS WEEK...
http://www.sportsshooter.com/message_display.html?tid=13527
http://www.sportsshooter.com/message_display.html?tid=13517
http://www.sportsshooter.com/message_display.html?tid=13490
http://www.sportsshooter.com/fgardler/gymlights/
http://www.sportsshooter.com/message_display.html?tid=13326
I have found myself searching the story and photographer area by mistake, make sure you are actually searching in the MB area. Also make sure you search for all postings and not just this week.
Thomas has a good point. Try buying some zip line and some add a taps and make a hard wire set up. When you finish that and if you decide that it will not work for you due to length of cord, safety concerns at least you have learned an important skill. I am the least qualified electronics person I have ever met. But by taking the time to make my own cables, following the instructions found on this site and members sites I continue to learn new skills.
In the current issue of SS their is a great story about an assistants bag and gear. I printed out the story and checked it to my own gear bag and found several things listed I didn't carry. It even mentions Heat Shrink Tubing, I have never used any before so I am going to go out and give some a try. It mentions it gives a finished look to your remote trigger and buttons.
Like I said, I have no clue but a few dollars and some time and I can find out. Give it a try yourself. |
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Thom Kendall, Photographer, Assistant
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Easthampton | MA | USA | Posted: 4:54 PM on 12.20.04 |
->> Henry,
It might be to the point to indicate exactly what you want for a set-up initially...
Then the list would be better able to make suggestions.
Are we talkin' one remote w/o strobes? One remote w/ strobes? yadi yadi yada...
Thom |
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Henry Hsu, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Los Angeles | CA | USA | Posted: 8:53 PM on 12.20.04 |
->> okay. this is just for starters.
I don't know about the cables coing out of the remote transciever, like keeping camera awake and actually triggering. Right now I want to have a D100 set off remotely. So, my question should really be: what else do I need other than the PW? |
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Jay Lee, Photographer
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Nashville | TN | USA | Posted: 9:23 PM on 12.20.04 |
| ->> I think you may spend a couple of hours with a local photographer who does the remote... it looks like you live in LA and I know that there are hundreds of photogs who know and do the remote... Just assist him/her then you can learn how to set up a remote camera in the gym... Hope this helps and it's the easiest way to learn... Jay |
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Robert E. Hudson Jr, Photographer, Assistant
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Pasadena | CA | USA | Posted: 1:59 AM on 12.21.04 |
->> Henry - I'll be setting up various remotes this season at the Sports Arena for USC Men's Hoops. Drop me a note and I'll let you know what games you can pester me at. :)
--Robert |
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Henry Hsu, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Los Angeles | CA | USA | Posted: 2:36 AM on 12.21.04 |
| ->> Thanks alot all! |
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Ryan Witt, Student/Intern
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Santa Barbara | CA | United States | Posted: 9:04 PM on 12.21.04 |
| ->> I have a question what is everyone using as far as a trigger for their remotes. I saw one that was taped right in front of the shutter and I really liked the idea I was just curious what is out there as far as triggers. Any links on that would be great. |
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Ryan Witt, Student/Intern
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Santa Barbara | CA | United States | Posted: 11:45 PM on 12.21.04 |
->> Shawn,
I think that first one is the one i was thinking of. You mind explaining what that other cord is the one that keeps the camera on. Is that cord needed? Thanks |
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Roger Ogden, Photographer, Student/Intern
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Brookline | nh | USA | Posted: 9:25 PM on 12.23.04 |
->> Vern,
Wouldn't the transmitter in your hand that talks to the receiver on the camera also trigger the receiver on the strobes? So with one click of the transmitter in your hand, the camera's shutter would open and the strobes would go off. Am I missing something? (i''ve never done this!) |
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Allan Campbell, Photographer, Assistant
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Salem (Portland) | OR | USA | Posted: 9:31 PM on 12.23.04 |
| ->> It is too difficult to pick up more than one transmitter. So you build push button triggers to make it easier to fire. Somewhere there is a picture of 2 triggers in velcro that goes under your shooting camera. |
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Thomas E. Witte, Photographer
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Cincinnati | OH | USA | Posted: 9:42 PM on 12.23.04 |
->> Roger, close. The fundamental problem always reverts back to shutter lag. While the receivers both receive and fire their peripheral circuit in unison, the lights will have fired before the shutter lag period expires, missing the lights every time. (at least this is how it is with my PW classics)
So say your floor camera and lights are on channel 1. For a remote, you'd need two more transmitters and one receiver. The trigger you'll have in your hand set to channel 2 with the receiver on the remote set to 2 as well. Then a trigger on the remote set to channel 1 to fire the strobes. This way when you fire your floor camera you aren't tripping the remote and when you fire the remote, you aren't desynchronizing the lights.
The other way is to hardwire your remote.
I haven't played with the Flashwizards yet, but was _under the impression_ that it would alleviate this problem. |
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Ben Chen, Photographer
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Los Angeles | CA | USA | Posted: 12:06 AM on 12.24.04 |
| ->> Hey, Thomas, where is Image #7 of your article? Ben |
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Vern Verna, Photographer
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taylors (Greenville) | SC | United States | Posted: 12:50 AM on 12.24.04 |
->> Roger, the multi max have a relay feature in them so this is what i have done with them.
transmitter with me on say channel 1
pw multimax at camera on receive channel 1 plugged into motor drive
same multimax with relay mode on with a plug in coming off sync of camera on channel 2 (this acts as a transmitter on channel 2 when it gets the sync signal from camera thus eliminating the lag thomas is talking about.)
receiver on strobes set to channel 2 which receives the signal from this pw multimax on relay mode which then set off the strobes.
the transmitter in ur hand can be the old style pw 16 channel, a plus, multi whatever along with the receiver. the one on the remote has to be a multimax which is the only one with the relay feature. the multimax basically then functions as 2 pw one to recieve the signal to fire the drive and one to transmit the sync to fire the lights.
guys dont forget to use a safety cable when mounting. check recheck and check again and make sure everything is lock down and want be coming down on a dunk. i might want to go into ur arena someday and they say no u cant do that because one time we had a camera fall on a players head. we got stupid rules in the acc because this happened about 8 years back by a photographer doing something they shouldnt have tried. |
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Thomas E. Witte, Photographer
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Cincinnati | OH | USA | Posted: 1:57 AM on 12.24.04 |
->> Ah, the multi's do do that. I wasn't sure so I didn't want to post false info. Call me old school, but I love my old Classic PW's. Seeing that they have that capability though I may need to chuck all 20 of these.
Ben... Good question. Jason created the page out of the text and photos I provided, ask him. |
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Nick Doan, Photographer, Assistant
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Scottsdale | AZ | USA | Posted: 2:45 AM on 12.24.04 |
->> If I am getting repetitive, forgive me, but I just want to clarify some of things I'm reading here.
You cannot set two PW Plus receivers to the same channel and fire them both off with one Plus transmitter because the shutter lag of the camera (in my case would be a Canon 1D) would not synch with the strobes.
However, by putting a MultiMax on the Remote camera, and setting it to relay mode, it would then receive a signal (sent from the Plus Transmitter) to trip the remote, and signal the strobes (which are on another Plus Receiver) thus synching the remote camera and strobes together.
Does this also keep the strobes synched to the camera in your hand with the Plus Transmitter on them?
Is there any way to do this with only a PW Classic set and a PW Plus set? Will it work pretty much the same way with a MultiMax and the PW Classic set? And, what if you wanted two or more remote cameras?
(Y'know this would probably be easier if just had MultiMaxes for each seperate device...) |
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Shawn Cullen, Assistant
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San Diego | CA | USA | Posted: 5:28 AM on 12.24.04 |
->> Thomas,
The boys at LPA recommend that you open up the shutter speed to allow the Pocket Wizard to switch from receiver to transmitter and trigger the strobes. If you sync at 250th you may have to go down to 160th or 125th. So do not get rid of all those classic units yet.
The Flash Wizards II will allow you to shoot at the cameras sync speed. They will also allow you to shoot different camera makes and models at there sync speeds as well. Flash Wizards II are very expensive and are made when only when ordered.
Nick,
“Does this also keep the strobes synched to the camera in your hand with the Plus Transmitter on them?”
I hope I understand this correctly. To keep your hand held camera on strobes, you will need another transmitter. That one can sit in the hot shoe to fire the strobes for your hand held camera. The Transmitter used to fire the remotes will need a trigger connected to it. You can hold the trigger in your hand, or attach it to your camera, and the unit can sit next to you.
You can not do the Relay Mode without using the Multimax Transceiver. If you want to trigger 2 remotes with strobes at the same time refer to page 43 of the manual or get the Flash Wizards II’s. The Relay Mode is on page 40. Good Luck. |
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Vern Verna, Photographer
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taylors (Greenville) | SC | United States | Posted: 10:38 AM on 12.24.04 |
->> Shawn, The boys at pw may recommend that but I have run it on 1d at 1/500 in quite a few arena and quite a few times with relay. First off why would you need to show the sync speed down. On relay you have a sync cord coming out of the camera and this is what set off the relay on the pw so it has nothing to do with the pw. On relay it is just like have 2 pw on the cam, one for receiving to trigger the motor drive and 1 on the sync as a transmit to trigger the lights.
Nick, On shooting two camera and one transmitter. Remember what I said earlier channel 1 on the transmitter set off the drive. channel 2 is for the strobes. So if you want to set off the strobes with your handheld camera you need a transmitter set to channel 2 so yes you need another one.
Here was my typical setup last year. 1 multimax set to receive to set off the flash. 2 multimaxes, one in each handheld cams hotshoe set to transmit. 1 pw 16 channel original transmitter to set off the remote. 1 pw multimax on the remote cam set to relay. So in total 5 wizards with only 1 having to be a multimax. If you do it with pluses or original pws you need 6 total-4 transmitters and 2 recievers. |
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Nick Doan, Photographer, Assistant
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Scottsdale | AZ | USA | Posted: 12:29 PM on 12.24.04 |
->> Shawn,
I meant, can you fire off the remote and strobes, when firing the camera in your hand. (Meaning not using the trigger.) I've been using a trigger, and find my poor co-ordination (I can't walk and chew gum at the same time) a problem. (that and ambuent light is very poor in the arena I shoot in.)
Vern,
I believe I am starting to see the answer. So, you need two channels still to do this. Does adding another remote require another channel? (Only having four channels is one limitation I am finding with the Plus kit).
Thanks for all your help, everyone. |
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Vern Verna, Photographer
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taylors (Greenville) | SC | United States | Posted: 10:47 PM on 12.24.04 |
->> Nick, exactly why I don't have any pluses. I have been in arenas with six sets of strobes, if everybody had plus's we would be two channels short just to set off strobes, not to mention if we each needed 2 channels to set off a remote and the strobes.
As to Shawn comments, unfortunetly what he does for the most part is a different world than the rest of us live in, no disrespect to Shawn. SI does whatever it takes to get a shot, if that means using mark II to shoot fb one day and then carrying 8 1d (the original) to shoot baskeball well then so be it.
Also Shawn is talking about Flashwizards which cost $2000+ plus a box and you need one for each remote camera plus one for the strobes. So to give you an example you need one for ur 300 downcourt camera ($2000) plus 1 more for the remote downcourt ($2000 more for $4000 total) plus one more for the strobes ($2000 more for a total of $6000). Guys that is just the boxes to run the camera not the cost of cams or light or lenses. Now SI runs says 4 camera pointing at one backboard, so Kobe dunks tomorrow on Shaq and they have a glass cam (1d with a 16-35 and the flashwizard -about $5000), a post cam (1d with 20 or 24 with a flashwizard -about 4300), a floor cam (1d with about a 35?? and a flashwizard -about 4250), and an overhead (1d with a 300 and a flashwizard-about 5000) and finally your handheld downcourt cam (1d with a 300 and a flashwizard -about 8000) and a flashwizard to run the strobes (2000). i get about 28550 to run the 5 camera together. Now SI has five angles of the dunk so the odds are one is a nice frame if not 2 or 3 so they have a nice cover shot for next week's issue.
I think most of us are in my category, we love to shoot multiple remotes but we have limited cash and if they all dont work together and we miss a shot, we hate it but we can only do so much with the money we have. This is not to slight Shawn cause i know what he goes through to make those systems work and i know they can blow up at a moments notice and then Shawn really earns his money lol, but for most of us it is not feasible.
As to running 2 cameras simetaneously (getting the same exact frame from different angles) with multi maxes, it can be done but it works best with 1d not the mark II, the mark ii shutter lag varies enough to make it only workable at around 160 of a second or slower shutter speeds which in turn gives u motion blur. the 1d or at least 6 i have run test on are almost always giving you the same lag time (between .0555 and .0560 seconds) which make them usuable with multimaxes. According to pw manual you can safely shoot at 250 or less shutter speed and make them fire simetanueously. When you fire the camera and strobe with the same channel then the camera will fire basically a 5/100 of a second to late which doesn't sound like much but it is enough to miss the strobe unless u set the camera to 1/20(=5/100) of second shutter speed which will cause a lot of motion blur. Theoretically you can run the camera on the same channels to fire them all but you get into shutter lag problem which means the camera that fires the flash first works but one of the other may not and be late plus u run into the problem of tearing up the flash by firing it (or trying to) before it recycles. This is where you get into equalization with the camera and making them fire simetanetously. I do this and I still carry the manual 3 years after I tried it for the first time. It is not easy to work and it doesnt always work. Shawn's Flashwizards II system that SI uses is a multimax on steriods with a calculator for lack of a better way to explain it. The Flashwizards when you set up figures your lack time of the camera it is hooked to. Then use set it up with another camera and another Flashwizard and it figures that cams lag time. Do this with all of them and the Flashwizard figures the lag time and delay to give each camera. As the game goes on the Flashwizard takes each camera lag time every time you shoot and refigures and compensates if necessary with the delay time. With the Multimaxes, it will tell you the lag of each cam and you figure the delay and work them out. if a battery dies, temp of the arena goes up etc. the camera can vary the lag time and the multimax only figures the lag time when you do it and you can't do it during a game unfortunetly. If it get off during a game, well you have a useless camera, but that is the difference in a 295 multimax and a 2000 flashwizard. And now the worst part the mark II varies too much in shutter lag to be workable in the pw system unless you want to go down to about 1/125 of a second to get usuable frames. Most of the SI guys are using 1d for their system to make them work. Hope i answered your questions instead of creating 40 new ones lol
vern |
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Shawn Cullen, Assistant
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San Diego | CA | USA | Posted: 2:44 AM on 12.25.04 |
->> Vern,
I take absolutely no offence to any of your comments. We are all trying to help each other out. Your description about the Flash Wizard II’s is pretty dead on. Most SI photographers do not use a Flash Wizard on there down court camera, except form the Final Four or the NBA Finals. The cameras they use the most is the 1Ds, some 1D’s, and some are now using the 1Ds Mark II. After some testing we have found ways to use both the 1D Mark II and the 1Ds Mark II on the system with about 85% hit rate.
It is very much possible to use the Pocket Wizards just like the Flash Wizards and SI does use this system from time to time. The best camera for this is the 1D. We use it at 320th though with great results, and good results at 400th.
As far as shooting at a slower shutter speed when using the relay mode, I believe some cameras fire faster than the Transceiver can switch to transmit. The 1D is an exception because it does not use a mechanical shutter at those speeds, which is why I referred to 250th sync speeds. I could be wrong! I will check with LPA on Monday and get back to you. 2 posts with wrong info this week, I am really sorry. |
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Vern Verna, Photographer
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taylors (Greenville) | SC | United States | Posted: 11:36 AM on 12.25.04 |
->> Shawn i see what you are saying about the slowing down of the shutter speed to wait on the pw to switch channels. never thought about that and must have missed that in the manual (actually probably forgot it cause i think i have read the manual 42 times by now lol).
let me throw you a question and see if you can give me an answer. i set up 2 or 3 camera downcourt (1d) on the post, glass etc. with the pw multimax mounted on the post with a super clamp and a 4" pw standoff post. one of the cams is wired to the strobes, the other one or two depending on the setup is sync by a multimax to fire simetaneously with it. i am sitting on the other end with a transmitter to fire the cams (a pw original) and have the pw on my basket on my end to set off the remotes on a super clamp with a stanoff post of 4". well at some point it quits firing the flash during the game as least consistently. it is almost like about 20 minutes in the game the pw falls asleep and if u hit it like 4-5 times you wake it back up and it will work but the next dunk, it is back asleep. well i am getting black frames so the pw to the camera is working. i have changed batteries, wizards channels etc and still cant find a reason for it. the wizard fire flawlessly with my handheld camera but of course i am 10 feet max away from them. i have tried it in 3 different arenas and exactly the same problem. by the way i have changed out pw during the game and it works for like 10 minutes then fell asleep again. Any ideas? |
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Thom Kendall, Photographer, Assistant
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Easthampton | MA | USA | Posted: 6:11 PM on 12.26.04 |
->> Vern,
The same thing (kinda) happens to me with my bball backboard cam and MuliMax's, but only when I'm on the other end of the floor...When I'm on the same end, it works perfectly. I can only assume that the metal supports, glass, etc. block, or partially block the signal. I'm gonna try mounting the MultiMax somewhere where I'll have a line-of-sight from the other end.
Thom |
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Robert G. Stevens, Photographer
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Halifax | NS | Canada | Posted: 7:09 PM on 12.26.04 |
->> I think a lot of people missed the point on taping a second trigger to the camera. This second trigger is either plugged into a separate pocket wizard to fire a remote or hard wired to the remote. It is not used to trigger the same Pocket Wizard connected to your handheld camera.
Here are some of the combinations that can be done:
1.) You use a Pocket wizard on the handheld camera shooting the floor, syncing to the arena lights using the pocket wizard. The second trigger is taped to this camera and plugged into a second pocket wizard. This triggers a remote camera. This remote can use the arena strobes if you hardwire it to them. In other words, your overhead camera is in the catwalks or net and triggered with a receiver and pre-trigger cord. The arena strobes are connected from the pc socket of the remote camera to the sync line of the arena strobes using a drop line/jumper wire. This setup requires four pocket wizards and two frequencies.
2.) The hand held camera is hard wired with a drop line. The trigger taped to this camera goes to a Pocket Wizard transmitter, which fires the remote camera which has the pocket Wizard Reciever and pre-trigger cord. The remote camera is hard wired into the arena strobes using a drop line or a jumper wire to the arena strobe sync cord looping the catwalks. This setup only requires two pocket Wizards.
3.) The camera is hard wired to the arena strobes using a drop line. The net remote is hard wired to the same arena strobes using a drop line and the trigger taped to the camera is hard wired to the net remote camera. No Pocket wizards are required.
4.) You can use the many combinations of the multimax or flash wizards and timing delays to sync the cameras to the same strobes. This is probably the most complex and expensive.
If you can shoot from a drop line, combination 2 is the easiest way to shoot both your handheld and remote camera on the same set of strobes. Combination 3 is probably cheap, but running the hard wired trigger cord to the remote can get complicated. |
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Shawn Cullen, Assistant
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San Diego | CA | USA | Posted: 8:21 PM on 12.26.04 |
->> Vern,
I am not sure if you got my email, but can you explain your problem again, in a little more detail. When this problem happens, does the red light on the Pocket Wizard still blink? If so, I bet the problem is with the trigger cord or the sync cord. But please explain it again.
Thom,
If you have the Pocket Wizard next to the glass camera, that could be the problem. Try using a mini phone extension cord, so you can mount the Pocket Wizard near the end of the basket away from obstructions, like you said. Radio Shack has these extension cords, they are 6’ and make sure to get the one with mono plugs if you are using the pre-release cord. Also, use one of these to get the Pocket Wizards away from the metal. They obviously fit into a Super Clamp.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&...
Also, make sure you have the most currant software in your Pocket Wizards. The most currant last I check was 3.27. If you have anything lower, it may cause signal problems.
Robert,
Very nice job! |
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Vern Verna, Photographer
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taylors (Greenville) | SC | United States | Posted: 10:26 PM on 12.26.04 |
| ->> Shawn i know some of my pw r older and dont have the most recent sw. can u send it to pw and they will update free of charge or does it cost anything or do u know? vern |
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Shawn Cullen, Assistant
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San Diego | CA | USA | Posted: 11:28 PM on 12.26.04 |
->> Vern,
It did not cost anything the last time I sent some in which was the middel of last season. I would recommend sending them to LPA not Mamiya. It did take a few days though, so plan accordingly. |
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Thom Kendall, Photographer, Assistant
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Easthampton | MA | USA | Posted: 9:05 PM on 12.27.04 |
->> Shawn,
Thanks for the advice...I'm pretty sure you're right about signal blockage, especially since the PW unit is completely surrounded by metal supports. I do use a standoff for the MultiMax, to isolate it from the metal structures.
I'll try the extension cords, and move the unit to a clear area.
Thom |
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