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SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board

Pacers vs Detroit
Jeff Barrie, Photographer
Indianapolis | IN | USA | Posted: 11:49 PM on 11.19.04
->> Any SS members shooting that game? What a mess.
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Rick Burnham, Photographer
Enfield | CT | USA | Posted: 12:09 AM on 11.20.04
->> I thought the NHL was in a lock out?
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Jeff Barrie, Photographer
Indianapolis | IN | USA | Posted: 12:20 AM on 11.20.04
->> Rick I was looking at the footage trying to see if Craig Melvin (ss member) was there shooting. It looked more like the WWE than the NBA.


You know near the end of the game, there had to be one guy shooting who probably filled up a card and was scrambling to get another one in the camera as the fighting broke out.


If you were a shooter there tonight would you add boxing or tough man competition to your resume'?
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BJ Turner, Photographer
Marietta(Atlanta) | GA | | Posted: 12:27 AM on 11.20.04
->> I'm a big chicken so I would have left the floor. Probably would have shot loads of photos from the stands. It will be interesting to see what's posted on gettyimages.com. No photos of the fight posted on the team sights.
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BJ Turner, Photographer
Marietta(Atlanta) | GA | | Posted: 12:30 AM on 11.20.04
->> websites
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Wesley R. Bush, Photographer
Nashville | TN | U.S. | Posted: 12:39 AM on 11.20.04
->> AP didn't come up with any decent ones. It would have been a good time to have been in the rafters. None of the floor-level shots are good. (That I've seen.)
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Talya Arbisser, Student/Intern, Assistant
Ithaca | NY | USA | Posted: 12:48 AM on 11.20.04
->> WOW... my bro just sent me this link... there is a video of it... that is INSANE! Hope all photographers who were there got out of the way, looks like emotions were flying high.

http://www.santoalt.com/pacers_pistons_fight.php

-Talya
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Rick Burnham, Photographer
Enfield | CT | USA | Posted: 1:35 AM on 11.20.04
->> Sports Center just did a great job of breaking down the film and actually showing a lot of what went on. That was just nuts. The coaches were the only one's to comment and they both seemd really stunned by the goings on.
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BJ Turner, Photographer
Marietta(Atlanta) | GA | | Posted: 1:38 AM on 11.20.04
->> Category 10.
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Kyle Carter, Photographer
Meridian | MS | USA | Posted: 1:40 AM on 11.20.04
->> Just another emphasis of fans being close to players - maybe this is another link -

...but do you think that they are?
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Omar Vega, Photographer, Student/Intern
San Francisco | CA | USA | Posted: 1:48 AM on 11.20.04
->> Wha-hoo!

Talk about action.

I would have been all over with a wide angle lens blasting away...

Adios,

omar
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Matt Strasen, Photographer
Stillwater | OK | USA | Posted: 1:51 AM on 11.20.04
->> I remember Robin Finch(?), the heckler in Washington. Opposing players wanted to hit him, but didn't. Heckling is one thing, but what the fans did in Detroit was embarrasing. What was going through their heads?
The images from ESPN were amazing. The fact that a camera man/woman was seemingly right on top of Artest and O'Neal when they threw punches on the court produced outstanding images.
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Brad Mangin, Photographer
Pleasanton | CA | USA | Posted: 2:01 AM on 11.20.04
->> Matt- Good knowledge- the guy's name is Robin Ficker. He was very effective at aggravating the opposition (and making them laugh at times) but he NEVER threw stuff at the players.

By the way, SportsShooter.com member Duane Burleson was there covering the game for AP. This looked like an impossible thing to cover for a still photographer unless you were overhead. I just hope he did not get hurt.
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Gary Lake, Photographer
Morgantown | WV | USA | Posted: 2:05 AM on 11.20.04
->> Unbelievable..........I can't even begin to imagine the repercussions from this incident.
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Brad Penner, Photographer
Matawan | NJ | USA | Posted: 2:09 AM on 11.20.04
->> I was trying to think of something funny to say, but you know, there really isn't anything funny about what went on. I guess the Pacers shoulda given Artest the time off he requested last week... Now he'll have a month and then some to promote his crappy CD.

-b.
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Michael Proebsting, Photographer
Barrington | IL | USA | Posted: 2:33 AM on 11.20.04
->> It won't be long before the fans are separated by the players with a fence/wall. Let's face reality here: Alcohol played a key role in this fiasco. It usually takes a tragedy before a situation is addressed, and if I'm David Stern and the NBA this was a tragedy. Do fans feel compelled to get so shitfaced that they run onto the court to confront players in a physical confrontation? Apparently tonight in Detroit some did.
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Brad Penner, Photographer
Matawan | NJ | USA | Posted: 2:37 AM on 11.20.04
->> I think they should just disband the league. According to Latrell Sprewell, they're not paying the players enough to feed their families anyway...

-b.
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Jeff Hinds, Photographer
Portland | OR | USA | Posted: 3:42 AM on 11.20.04
->> Just checked getty to see what had been posted. If you look close at Image #51768399 in the det v. ind game photos, you can see the infamous cup in the hand of the guy before he threw it (blue coat, white hat, top right of photo). Good thing they don't sell glass bottles at games anymore ;)

JH
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Monty Rand, Photographer
Bangor | ME | USA | Posted: 6:19 AM on 11.20.04
->> Photos, where are the photos????
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Emily Borowski, Photographer
South Bend | IN | USA | Posted: 9:46 AM on 11.20.04
->> Why was Artest even lying in a prone position on the scorer's table? Did I hear the report correctly that he had headphones on & was chatting with the radio announcers? During a game??

Alcohol most certainly played a part in this, but Artest only provoked the fans by this behavior.

Just my $.02.
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Jeff Frings, Photographer
Milwaukee | WI | USA | Posted: 9:55 AM on 11.20.04
->> I'm kind of amazed how many people are blaming this incident on the fans. I have heard numerous local and national sportscasters say that this was all the fault of the drunk fans, and one guy on ESPN this morning even went so far as to say any fan who went on the court "got what they deserved".

Now don't get me wrong what the fans did was wrong, and they should be dealt with, but what the players did was far worse.

Throwing beer is one thing throwing punches is another.

I've been in many situations where I've had beer thrown at me or dumped on me (parties, bars), and I didn't immediately go after the guy who did it, and I had been drinking.

The players should have let security do their jobs and arrest the unruly fans. Instead they themselves acted much like the drunk fans would have if they had had beer thrown at them.

As far as the fans that were on the court, what they deserved was a ticket for tresspassing.

I've watched the video at least 10 times now and the 2 fans that got decked on the court were not the ones who initiated the contact.

Artest threw the first punch at a guy who did not have his fists raised, and was standing still when the punch was thrown, so I don't see how that could be taken as a threatening gesture.

The next fan on the court was being pulled away from the fight and off the court by a security guy when he was punched in the face, so his arms were being held and he could not even defend himself much less throw a punch.

Both of these idiots deserve to be charged or cited for tresspassing, but both players deserve to be charged with felonies. If anyone else did what they did in the same situation they would certainly be charged. They should both end up spending some time in prison.

Unfortunatley they will probably only serve a few game suspension and get a disorderly conduct citation. What a crock.

Jeff
P.S. I can't tell for sure, but it looks to me like the guy Artest initially went after and hit wasn't even the guy who threw the beer. Anyone able to tell from the video/photos you've seen?
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Gavin Werbeloff, Photographer, Student/Intern
Decatur | GA | USA | Posted: 10:47 AM on 11.20.04
->> A lot of people asking what should happen now. I think the NBA needs to take a page out of Soccer's handbook. On September 15th of this year, a UEFA Champions League game between Dynamo Kiev and AS Roma. The game had to be called early because the ref was hit with coin thrown from the stands. As a punishment for Roma, they had to play their next two champions league home games behind closed doors, with no fans present.

I think the pistons should have to play their next five home games behind closed doors, at the palace with no fans present. In addition, I think the Pistons/Pacers game in Indy in a few weeks should be played the same way. I this sends messages to all parties involved.

To the fans: If you behave like animals and shower opposing players with food and drinks, you lose the opportunity to cheer for your own players. For the players: If you assault other team's fans, you lose your home field advantage and your sixth man. To the owners: If you fail to provide sufficient security, and fail to control your fans, you lose your ticket revenue.

This would also have the side effect of making the owners liable for the discipline of their players. Somehow, from the player's perspective, if the guy signing the checks is telling you to behave, it carries a little more weight than the coach, who, these days, players can get fired rather easily.

My $0.02
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Thomas E. Witte, Photographer
Cincinnati | OH | USA | Posted: 10:48 AM on 11.20.04
->> Yea your right. I don't know what would provoke me to ever throw things at a person, but laying on a table has to be at the top of my list... I'm not sure how you can say that with a straight face when you know that all half the fans do is continually try to provoke the players the entire game, every game. The only provoking the Pacers did was by embarrasing the Pistons in front of the home town crowd.

As for putting the blame on artest for not turning the other cheek... Um, what about Wallace? You know, the guy who started it?

I really don't know why anyone is surprised or disgusted by this. I'm only surprised that this hasn't happened sooner (in basketball). It's happened numerous times in baseball and hockey and those sports have glass walls and dugouts. Basketball is one of the only sports where the fans have seating ON the sidelines.
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Jerome Davis, Photographer
Rochester | NY | USA | Posted: 10:57 AM on 11.20.04
->> I think the fans are to blame. Like the cop said that was interviewed, if you feel you are threaten you have the right to defend yourself. Then it's up to the prosecution to decide if it was just. The guy Ron Artest went after initially, Ron Artest did not punch him. He pushed him in the face and raised his fist to threaten him. He could have easily punched him like he did the guy on the court. The fan that came onto the court was not standing still. If you look again he raises his right hand twice, plus we don't know what he said. If you ever been in a fight before and some runs up to you like that, in a hostile situation, you better take care of them first before they take you out. Or run away quick. They also said that know one was arrested.
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Mark Buffalo, Photographer
Lonoke | AR | USA | Posted: 11:12 AM on 11.20.04
->> When all is said and done, everyone is at fault...Artest didn't even go after the guy that threw the cup, according to Jim Grey.

Not to make light of this, but why is Artest wearing 91 this year? Does he want to be like Dennis Rodman, who wore 91 with the Bulls.

Something has to be done on both sides from the fans point and the players point. If this had happened in college, the players, who were provoked, would be suspended by the NCAA for the remainder of the season. Same for high school...the player would probably be suspended from school as well. All of that needs to be taking into account.

I've been hit by a throw bottle after a high school game a couple of years ago and it is a bad situation. I even try to get the home players off the court because they were all students of my wife when they were in the seventh grade.

I just hope this kind of incident never happens again. but it probably will!
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Jeff Frings, Photographer
Milwaukee | WI | USA | Posted: 11:18 AM on 11.20.04
->> "If you look again he raises his right hand twice, plus we don't know what he said."

There must be two different videos because the guy I saw come onto the court was kind of jogging until he saw that Artest was getting closer to him and/or he was getting closer to Artest, then he stopped. He was not moving toward Artest when he got hit, and I didn't see his hands up at all.
As far as what he might have been saying, it doesn't matter at all what he was saying. Nothing he was "saying" would give someone the right to punch him in the face.

All the fans that went on the court or threw things should be charged or cited but how in the world does that justify the overpaid whiners going after them and punching them in the face. I have heard and read about all the taunting the players have to deal with and that most people wouldn't show the kind of restraint the players have shown. I wouldn't call punching multiple fans in the face restraint.


I just listened to more of the ESPN comments and a couple of them said they hoped the league and the players association would come to the defense of their players.
This is insane! Just as there is no defense for what the fans did, there is no defense for going into the crowd and punching fans.

If a fan attacks a player they have the right to defend themselves, but what I saw was not defending themselves, it was, they got pissed at fans who did something they should not have done and then the players took it to the next level.
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Worth Canoy, Photographer
High Point | NC | USA | Posted: 11:35 AM on 11.20.04
->> Hey, look what the fight on television did for NASCAR racing back in the 70s!
Maybe this will bring basketball to a whole new level!
Just glad I don't shoot the violent sports. LOL
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Leon Halip, Photographer
Bloomfield Hills | MI | USA | Posted: 11:49 AM on 11.20.04
->> I did attend the game as a "$125 PER TICKET PAYING FAN" with my 12 year old daughter.
Try explaining that scene to your daughter on the way home. UGH.
I was 20 rows above the fight and never moved from my seat. It was surreal experience and it did last for a long time. There were NO "Uniformed Police" any where in the area. It was an absolute ZOO and another major black eye for the Detroit Fans.
For what it's worth most of these "FIGHTING FANS" were sitting in those high dollar seats and were young. While the rest of us just watched with total disbelief. I am sorry on behalf of the good fans in Detroit.
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Chris Doane, Photographer
-- | CO | USA | Posted: 11:50 AM on 11.20.04
->> "As for putting the blame on artest for not turning the other cheek... Um, what about Wallace? You know, the guy who started it?"

Ehh...that might be stretch. Artest is the guy who thought it was a good idea to flagrantly foul Ben Wallace when the game was all but over. A 15 point lead and 49 seconds left...yes, good time to slam a guy on the other team. But I guess that's pretty much how Artest usually plays, which is to say, without class.

This should've never left court. 100% insanity.
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Bill Ross, Photographer
Colorado Springs | CO | USA | Posted: 12:34 PM on 11.20.04
->> I'm with Gavin on this... Make them play games without fans. This would penalize both parties, fans and athletes. Then maybe it would instill some sense of order to a sport that is quickly becoming unwatchable at the professional level. I don't blame the fans or the athletes any more than I would blame the management of the NBA. They are losing control.

Oh well, I guess I will just watch college hoops and wait patiently for March Madness... That's when you get to watch some REAL basketball.
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BJ Turner, Photographer
Marietta(Atlanta) | GA | | Posted: 1:01 PM on 11.20.04
->> If you have a chance the watch the ESPN clip of the fight, look out for the two kids at the end of the clip - the older child comforting the younger child who was crying. Those two young boys are sons of one the players. They were caught in the crossfire as well as the children of the paying fans. The players were in an uproar, but the fans equally awful. Over the past several years I have listen to fans throw out horrible verbal abuse to the players and their families on many occasions, and to be honest I am surprise there hasn't been more confrontations. The anger and hostility from the fans have gotten increasing worse.

My best guess is that Artest is and would have been damned either way -- cooling out on the table or taking a punch at someone he perceived as a threat. In looking at the comments in this thread - a variety of different opinions as to who was at fault or presented the biggest threat. I wonder how each of us would have reacted in the same situation - as a player or fan. As I mentioned in an earlier post - I'm a chicken - so as a fan, player or photographer, I would have attempted to get the hell out of the place. My best guess is that anyone who appeared to be intentionally (verbally or physically) blocking my exit would have been perceived as a threat.
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Jeyhoun Allebaugh, Student/Intern
Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 3:55 PM on 11.20.04
->> Jeff, I'm gonna have to disagree with part of what you said. While I firmly believe that theres no place for violence like this in sports and that Artest should have restrained himself and not punched the fan, theres more to it than just that. The fan who was wearing the pistons jersey went down to the court with the explicit intent of being involved in the brawl. He also approached Artest quickly with his fists clinched and then froze up when Artest turned his way. While I don't believe the fan "got what he deserved," he definitely is responsible for putting himself in that position and was not treated unjustly, in my opinion.
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Zack Podell, Photographer, Assistant
Marina Del Rey | CA | USA | Posted: 4:48 PM on 11.20.04
->> First.... Emily, Artest was not in a "prone" position.... He was lying on his back. I find it amazing that the man on the court with the worst temper, (so some people say) Artest, didn't put up too much of a fight after Big Ben hit him in the throat. Okay, so I commend him for walking away for that part of the incident.... his lying down on the scorers table can be taken any way..... Who's to say he wasn't having trouble catching his breath, after all, he was just hit in the throat, or maybe he was practicing something he learned in Anger Management, (He did go for quite some time)..... But to leave the playing field to fight a fan! For Christs sake!!!! That shows absolutely zero self control. He should have let the security, and Police deal with the fans. Shame on Detroit for not having enough of them around.

I think the bigger issue is that close to %40 of NBA players have criminal records. This staggering number is on par with the NFL as well. While we can point fingers all we darn well please.... Incidents like these will continue to occur on a regular basis, if stiffer penalties do not become mandatory. 12 hours later, a similar thing happens on the football field, between Clemson and SC... I rest my case.

On a side note, Ben wallace just lost his brother to Brain cancer, if I remember correctly. This doesn't excuse his behavior, but it goes to his state of mind.
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Adam Cairns, Student/Intern, Photographer
Muncie | IN | USA | Posted: 5:16 PM on 11.20.04
->> Wow, the fans in hockeytown are really taking the NHL lockout hard!

I heard something about the media being held back off the court when the fight broke out. Anyone know if that's true? That could be to blame for the lack of still images from the brawl.
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Gary Lake, Photographer
Morgantown | WV | USA | Posted: 5:23 PM on 11.20.04
->> As shocking and disturbing as the whole incident was I agree with BJ - the image of that poor kid crying was perhaps the most disturbing one of the whole melee to me. Today it was announced that 4 players are suspended indefinitely, but I have to believe that criminal charges will be forthcoming against several of the fans as well. I would hate to be resposible for trying to sort it all out - just look at all of the differing opinions in this thread alone. It's not going to be an easy task and there will be a lot of people upset no matter what the outcome. Truly sad to see american sporting events coming to this. I'm afraid this may be indicative of a much larger, wide spread problem.
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Patrick Murphy-Racey, Photographer
Knoxville | TN | USA | Posted: 9:02 PM on 11.20.04
->> Another sad thing about the fight is the lack of images of the incident coming from Getty. The corporate partnership between the NBA and Getty is a serious conflict issue when Getty photogs shoot things between the whistles of a game that is being televised, and yet there are so few frames that were allowed to be transmitted. I heard that three different images were moved and then yanked as soon as they hit the Getty server. They later re-appeared after most of the AM papers' deadlines had long passed. You have to wonder what about the value of being a Getty subscriber is when there is a question about whether or not you got the full measure of the take of a game where a fight took place. Did the Getty subscribers get a good value for their money in that games offerings? Bad things can happen when journalism and big business make deals with each other, especially when business is driving and ethics takes a back seat.
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Michael Stevens, Photographer
Phoenix | AZ | USA | Posted: 9:18 PM on 11.20.04
->> Jeff Frings, well said in your first post. I was attempting to write something similar last night but everything I came up with would've surely gotten me many "inappropriates."

Jerome Davis, "if you feel you are threaten [sic] you have the right to defend yourself." With all due respect you've got to be shitting me? What type of SERIOUS threat does a PLASTIC CUP full of a LIQUID present? None. And, what type of threat did a fan present to him when he had to climb over several rows of chairs? None. Combine those two facts and we know that Artest just wanted to fight ... plain and simple. He's a punk.

Chris Doane, "Artest is the guy who thought it was a good idea to flagrantly foul Ben Wallace when the game was all but over. ... good time to slam a guy on the other team." "Slam?" It was ugly, it was flagrant, but by no means was it hard nor did it deserve a "double throat chop/push" from Wallace. He's a punk.

Zack Podell, "close to %40 of NBA players have criminal records. This staggering number is on par with the NFL as well." I'm not at all surprised because the more I look the more I see that professional athletes are just punks, plain and simple. And they love to prove it over, and over, and over again.

We really should all be honest in placing blame. The entire event rests on the players' shoulders 100%. Let's look at what we know:

- It's a game (basketball, football, baseball, etc...). These guys are getting paid to play a game.
- They get paid well ... very well ... for playing a game. Much better than just about everyone in the stands. Add to that the millions they can make in endorsements.
- Because of those first two facts we (society as a whole) worship them like gods. They get shittons of money for playing a game and get better treatment out in public as a general rule. Fans flock to them like they are something special, instead of the punks that most of them are, the media treats them like they are something special which in turn makes society worship them even more.

So we've trained these "atheletes" to behave like little crybabies and give them everything they want yet we get enraged when they actually show us how we have taught them to act? Please ...

Tyson should have never fought after biting whatshisname.
Spreewell should have never played ball after choking his coach.
Rodman should have never been allowed to play after kicking that photog in the sack.
Who's that retard baseball player that threw the folding chair in the stands a couple weeks ago? He shouldn't be allowed to play again.
Wallace should never play basketball again ...

How long does the list have to be?

This kind of thing will continue until some action is taken. And, a couple games suspension and a little fine is not action. Murderers will continue to kill until they themselves are killed. I'm not trying to compare these crybaby "athletes" to murderers but these overpaid "athletes" will continue to BEHAVE LIKE WE'VE TAUGHT THEM until we get rid of them.

Mike
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Rick Burnham, Photographer
Enfield | CT | USA | Posted: 9:53 PM on 11.20.04
->> Now today (Saturday) there was a fight in the Clemson- South Carolina game between the players. Don't these guys after seeing this stuff on TV the night before get it? Are they just this stupid or has sportsmanship ceased to exist?
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Jim Sykes, Photographer
Montgomery Village | Md | | Posted: 1:32 AM on 11.21.04
->> I have to say that I agree with Michael to a certain extent on this.

Pro Athletes generally have it far better than any person should have it for simply being able to play a game well. We as the viewers, fans and media have turned them into the "above the law" babies many of them seem to be.

The answer is much tougher penalties when they act out. I mean when one of these guys gets a $50,000 fine its like me getting a $50 speeding ticket. I'm pissed off, but its generally not going to keep me from ever going over the speed limit ever again.

What needs to happen is these guys get benched without pay for a very significant amount of time, in this case at least the entire season in my book. Dont know about ever again, but something very significant. Then when they have to get rid of one of their Mercedes it might make them think a bit and will hopefully make others think as well.

Sad thing is, though they are certainly not at fault and should be dealt with strongly, the fans will likely be the big losers in the situation. What fines etc. they will face will likely hurt them much worse than any of the players and that isnt fair because they are all equally at fault for what happened.

Personlly, I think every single one of them that threw a punch, whether it landed or not, fans and players, should spend some time behind bars for assault.
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Heston Quan, Photographer
Long Beach | CA | | Posted: 2:24 AM on 11.21.04
->> So, to prevent this from ever happening again is the NBA going to now put up chain link fences up around the court to protect fans from players and vice-versa? After all, basketball players are sometimes refered to as "cagers." Also, the way the NBA is played nowadays, it's not much better than streetball.
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Kevin Saitta, Photographer
Groveland | CA | USA | Posted: 2:39 AM on 11.21.04
->> Jim couldn’t agree with you more!

What really gets me is that these so called professional are suppose to be role models but in reality they are nothing more than high paid thugs. I learned that it takes a man to walk away. If the athletes involved had any class, they would have just walked away and / or called for security to remove the fans causing the problems. But to react they way they did is just disgusting and plain out of control.

The fans and athletes involved should be banned for life from any game. This would send a strong message that you better act like a professional or suffer the consequences of your actions. I am so sick and tired of the media giving these overpaid so-called professional breaks by blaming everyone else.

They did what they did and they need to be held accountable for their actions.
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Bryan Curtis, Photographer
Plainville | CT | USA | Posted: 9:04 AM on 11.21.04
->> I'm not a basketball fan.....I never have been. I rather watch MTV's Real World than a NBA game. I was shocked but not that surprised when I saw the tape from the fight. Like many have said, I'm surprised it doesn't happen more often.

Michael Stevens....boy was I glad to read what you posted. That is excatly how it is. These athletes are treated like the almighty one. Why do people treat athletes like gods? What makes these guys any better of a person that your local firefighter, policeman or anyone that puts their lives on the line for us? These players involved should be suspended for the year without pay. The NBA commissioner should grow some stones and say, "New rules everyone, if you pull a stunt like that again, you are banned from the NBA for life. Any questions?" I bet more players would think twice about doing what these guys did. In baseball, since the Pete Rose incident, has anything like that happened again? Not to my knowledge.

Like Michael Stevens said...."Murderers will continue to kill until they themselves are killed". I'm a believer that if you want to eliminate a problem, get rid of it. If the NBA doesn't want this to happen again, pull these guys from the league, you've just eliminated part of the problem. Anyone else want to pull that kind of stunt? Go ahead, but you better start working on that resume!
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Andy Mead, Photographer, Photo Editor
Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 12:34 PM on 11.21.04
->> There are two completely seperate events. There's the on-court brawl - then there's the incident caused by a "fan" throwing something at a player.

The on-court behavior is something that needs to be dealt with within league guidelines. Fines, suspensions, etc..

The off-court problem is two-fold. It is not 100% the players fault. We as a society need to be able to have the subtlety to understand that everything isn't just black/white. Both the "fan" and the "player" are at fault. Preventing it from happening again will require efforts on multiple fronts.

Lessons can and should be learned from South American and European soccer. Detroit should be forced to play their next home game before an empty arena. Security cameras should be positioned such that anyone throwing items on - or coming onto - the court can be identified and banned for life. Fences/walls are not the answer - and have been responsible for some of the most horrific disasters in sports history.

The NBA does need to address the fight that took place on the court between the players.

American sports leagues as a group need to proactively begin to develop systems to restore the invisible line seperating the fans from the players. Part of this will require legislation.

Soccer fans that get out of control are often referred - wrongly - in the American press as "hooligans". Hooliganism has nothing to do with soccer, and everything to do with a culture that makes the fans believe that they are an integral part of the game. Once the line is crossed from "rah rah rah" to racial epitaths to throwing cups on the game floor, it's very hard to get things back. Just like most championships these days seem to result in rioting and destruction - these hooligans are drawn to the spectical and the violence - not the games.

Soccer authorities in Europe are continually vigilant. The greatest impediments are crowd cameras, and bans. A home and home playoff series earlier this year between Boca Juniors and River Plate in Buenos Aires, Argentina was made safer by restricting ticket sales to home fans only.

Anyone who wants to place the blame 100% on the players is in denial. I also feel that once the players leave the court, however, the matter should be one for the police as well as league officials.
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David Kalk, Photographer
Greenville | SC | USA | Posted: 1:26 PM on 11.21.04
->> Just put up a gallery with photos from the Clemson / Carolina fight Saturday.

http://www.sportsshooter.com/davidkalk/melee/

Hope you enjoy!
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Michael Hickey, Photographer
Kokomo | IN | USA | Posted: 6:34 PM on 11.21.04
->> Artest gone completely, Jackson out 30, O'Neal 25 and so on...
Pacers season is over and this is probably far from being over with charges and lawsuits coming next.
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Jim Sykes, Photographer
Montgomery Village | Md | | Posted: 6:45 PM on 11.21.04
->> Just heard the info on the suspensions and I really like the fact that the NBA put Artest out for the season. Also 30 games is nothing to sneeze at.

But this might really prove a point. What is that going to cost Artest? $2million, $5 million, not sure what he makes, but that is the kind of thing that will really hurt these guys where it counts, in the pocket book.

With the kind of money these guys make these days, especially with endorsements etc. a $50k or $100k fine is nothing to these guys. But to lose an entire season of pay is very significant.

I applaud the NBA on this one and I hope it hits home to some of these guys.

Now to await all the rest of the legal issues.
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Matt Strasen, Photographer
Stillwater | OK | USA | Posted: 6:54 PM on 11.21.04
->> Something still needs to done to the 'fans' in Detroit. The players, such as Artest and Jackson, are by no means the only ones to blame for this. The people in the stands played a major part in the brawl, and they should be punished in some way, i.e. revoking the guilty parties tickets, forcing a game to be played with fans...something to make those idiots realize they can't act like that and get away with it. I bet some of them are laughing now because they helped cause one of their major rivals championship hopes to go down the drain.
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Alan Look, Photographer
Bloomington | IL | United States | Posted: 7:41 PM on 11.21.04
->> And the next time they play each other is a Televised game on Christmas Day.

Let there be peace on earth.
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Gary Lake, Photographer
Morgantown | WV | USA | Posted: 7:55 PM on 11.21.04
->> I fully expect to see some of them (fans) facing criminal charges. The two caught on tape hitting the players from behind are probably looking at assault charges, the one who threw the first drink that set it off may be liable for inciting a riot, fans on the floor charged with trespassing, etc. I suspect the legal system will want to make just as strong a statement as that made by the league. I'd bet that the authorities feel that the message must be sent that this sort of incident will not be tolerated and that ANYONE who participates, whether player or fan, will pay dearly for their lack of judgement.
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Rick Burnham, Photographer
Enfield | CT | USA | Posted: 10:14 PM on 11.21.04
->> I am glad to see that David Stern dealt with this swiftly and the players got what they deserved.

Now what will happen to the college players from Clemson and South Carolina? What an ugly way for a great coach like Lou Holtz go out in his final regular season game.

David Kalk thanks for the gallery but the photos look mild compared to what was shown on TV. They obviously had an advantage in number of cameras and position.
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