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SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board

20D or 1D for a 10D shooter
Collin Pierson, Photographer, Student/Intern
Milwaukee | WI | USA | Posted: 3:40 PM on 09.27.04
->> hey all,
i have a 10d and well, its not working so well for what im doing. The af bounces around and i get alot of backfocused shots. So heres my delemma. Get a 20D or to get a 1d...
i would be incresing res with the 20D and decreasing res with the 1d...what to do?????
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Michael P. King, Photographer, Student/Intern
Athens | OH | USA | Posted: 3:56 PM on 09.27.04
->> Collin,

When I did an internship over the summer, I was issued a 1D to use as a "supplement" with my 10D... but I ended up using it as my primary body and the 10D as the secondary with the "other" lens. I loved the responsiveness of it, and I loved the AF because it really kicked some butt compared to the 10D... much higher in-focus percentage and marginally sharper photos.

But when it came down to it I could never get used to the lesser resolution and smaller file sizes of the 1D after shooting that 10D for a year. I was really used to getting a big file size out of my 10D and being able to crop stuff down a lot if I really needed to. So that's just something to think about. I liked knowing that if I had to crop, the file would hold together well.

On the other hand, *not* having that security with the 1D made me shoot technically wiser. I was more careful about filling the frame (cropping in camera), composing properly (and not relying on photoshop), and nailing exposures. So I guess it sorta helped me out in the long run.

I haven't used the 20D but I'm highly considering it because the 1D is becoming antiquated, the Mark II is too pricey for me, and my 10D body is not enough camera for me.

You need to sit down and rank order your priorities of what you need your camera to be. Is it file size? Is it speed and performance? Is it mastering composition?

Also, you might want to wait and see what Bert has to say about the 20D in the next issue of the SportsShooter newsletter.


--MK
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Eric Neitzel, Student/Intern, Photographer
Carpinteria | CA | USA | Posted: 4:24 PM on 09.27.04
->> Collin,

I have had my 10D for almost a year now with close to 10k shots on it, and on occasion I check a 1D out from school just for the fps. While I love the 8 fps on the 1D, I find that my colors aren’t nearly as good as they are on the 10D, and then there are always the issues of the flash and smaller resolution. I actually thought about getting a 1D as my backup or supplemental camera, but I decided to get the 20D just for the fact that its got 5 fps which is just fine for me, and the technology in the 20D is many years more advanced than the technology in the 1D. I just figured I would rather have a brand new camera with all of the upgrades that have happened in the last couple years than a camera that was on the other end of that spectrum.

Just my 2 cents...
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Shi-Yin Gu, Photographer, Student/Intern
Manchester | Lancashire | United Kingdom | Posted: 5:33 PM on 09.27.04
->> Collin,

Do you shoot a lot of sports? If you do, then 1D would be the one to go, AF, 8fps and tack sharp images beat 10D anyday.

However, if you'd want low noise performance at high ISO and bigger prints, then 20D is better.

my $0.02 ...
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Wayne McAtee, Photographer, Assistant
Hesperia | CA | usa | Posted: 8:21 PM on 09.27.04
->> Collin I had the the same debate. I bought a 10d over the 1D last year not my best move. I just bought a 20D (Samy's Camera in LA) over a used 1D last week. I did a fast test run on sun with the 20D. I like the 5fps and the 8.2 megapixel. I had more good shots than with the 10D but not as good as I had hoped for. I know some of it was on my end of the camera. I did not change any of the Canon presets. I will have good info after this weekend if you can hold off I will put up some shots on Sun or Mon. I do racing photos and the Mark II is the way to go but for the cost I wanted to try the 20D. If it works out I will get one more and sell my 10D.
Wayne
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Collin Pierson, Photographer, Student/Intern
Milwaukee | WI | USA | Posted: 8:25 PM on 09.27.04
->> i shoot mainly sports during the school year time, but during christmas break and summer i am a partner in a studio that does portraits, weddings, sr portraits, etc etc. so i am totally torn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! whats a good way to get a mk II??? whats a good way to finance it, as a student though?
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Collin Pierson, Photographer, Student/Intern
Milwaukee | WI | USA | Posted: 8:27 PM on 09.27.04
->> oh and also i shoot alot of night sports and college bball...so low noise......
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Kevin M. Cox, Photographer, Assistant
Round Rock (Austin) | TX | US | Posted: 8:48 PM on 09.27.04
->> Collin, alright, here is the secret for how I financed my move into digital when I graduated from college and began freelancing: **WARNING: If you are not responsible when using this idea you could find yourself in a lot of financial trouble and debt.**

Now this assumes you have a decent credit rating to start with. There are all kinds of credit cards out there with 0% interest for XX months. Find one with no annual fee, 0% interest for the longest amount of time you can find (1 year is the longest I've seen), and charge your gear.

As long as you make your minimum payments every month and have the complete balance paid off before the XX months expire, you won't pay any interest. It is like getting a free loan for XX months. **Remember though, if you miss a minimum payment or don't have the entire balance paid off by the end you'll (usually) be hit with the entire interest amount plus penalties.

BankOne.com currently has two cards available like this. A 12 month and a 6 month student version. Assuming you get the MkII for $4K, if you can afford $350 a month towards the bill you could pay it off by the time your 12 months expires.

True the MkII is a great camera, but you just need to ask yourself, will it help make you more money and get you more business then the 20D? If the MkII will make you an additional $2500+ in the next year then go for it. If the answer is questionable, get the 20D and make due with what you can. Remember, no piece of gear is worth going into debt over and/or damaging your credit.
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Scott Sewell, Photographer
Topeka | KS | USA | Posted: 10:00 PM on 09.27.04
->> Kevin, that is simply one of the most sound pieces of advice one could offer...not just about being careful with ones credit or how to get that new camera, but how to think about whether the camera will pay for itself or not.
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David Stoner, Photographer
Atlanta | GA | USA | Posted: 10:29 PM on 09.27.04
->> My recommendation - get the 1D. The fact of the matter is that most people DON'T need those extra-sized files. However, I continually hit more, better shots with the higher frame rate than someone using a 10D shooting right beside me with the same equipment. Maybe the 20D gets you closer to what you need, but having a 10D as my backup, I would want to know for SURE that their little (ok, NOT little) focusing issue has gone away. I have no focusing issues with the 1D. Shooting the 10D two days ago of former President Jimmy Carter, I took 6 shots - 1 was sharp, one focused on his wife to his side, two on the person he was talking to (to my left), and two on the tech guy to my right of Carter - EXTREMELY frustrating. You can tell it's him, but I definitely won't be getting any business from that exchange. If the 20D fixes that, and the color balance is the same as the 10D out of the box, it's a strong buy. However, someone mentioned the color on the 1D - I now get good color after importing new color parameters...so I feel like I have the best of both worlds now. Best of luck with your decision...
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Jamm Aquino, Photographer, Student/Intern
Honolulu | HI | usa | Posted: 1:12 AM on 09.28.04
->> Collin,

I also started on a 10D over a year ago, and I switched over to the 1D because its AF and fps are just way ahead of the 10D. You are right, though, because the file sizes on the 1D are notably smaller, but I also think that the 1D's images seem to be crisper than the CMOS sensored 10D. I recently tried the 20D, and it's quite a remarkable little camera, well worth its weight. However, you need to decide what fits your work demands. If it's resolution and file sizes you're after for large color prints, then I'd go with the 20D, but if you shoot for a newspaper or the wire where they don't necessarily want 8Meg files clogging up space, then I'd go with the 1D.

That's my two pennies...Cheers, and ALoha!
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Collin Pierson, Photographer, Student/Intern
Milwaukee | WI | USA | Posted: 1:26 AM on 09.28.04
->> aloha back!

heres my delemma...i do BOTH! i shoot sports all school year but i make money doing portraits etc during the summer and breaks! so theres my delemma....thats why im stuck!?....if only the mk II was a few grand cheaper..anybody wanna donate some dinero to the collin pierson foundation!? just kiddin!
collin
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Phil Hampel, Photographer
Barrington | IL | USA | Posted: 2:05 AM on 09.28.04
->> Here is the rational I just went through on purchasing the 20D. I also own a D30 and 10D and rent the 1D

The Mark II investment was more than I was willing to make the pay back was more than a couple of months. I don't want to be equipment rich and cash poor.

That left a used 1D and the new 20d. The 20D is a lite version of the Mark II. Not as rugged a few less frames per second and a smaller buffer. It still shoots 5 fps and buffers 20+ jpegs. AF is very good and the shutter lag is much closer to my old EOS 1n film body so it's no longer an issue. (I've been shooting the 20D for 2 weeks now)

If I was to buy the 1-series it didn't make sense to buy into old technology. Primarily I think the E-TTL II flash was a much needed impovement. The 1D is a great camera but it doesn't have E-TTL II. For me this was important.

My advice would be if you can make money with the camera in school buy the most camera for the least money and pay it back quickly. Save up some money and if you need to later upgrade to the 1D Mark II and/or 1Ds Mark II.

just another opinion.

By the way I had planned on getting a 1D Mark II and since I got the 20D the need (want) for the 1D Mark II has decreased significantly.

Good Luck!
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Craig Peterson, Photographer
St. Petersburg | FL | US | Posted: 8:53 AM on 09.28.04
->> Phil.....Since you have used both the 1D, and the 20D, how would you compare the AF? And does the 20D have the same back-focusing problems as the 10D? I have the same dilemma as Collin, however, it has come down to an AF issue for me and no one has really gone into detail about the 20D's AF.

Craig
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christopher koutsis, Photographer
huntington | ny | USA | Posted: 10:17 AM on 09.28.04
->> Collin,
Sports is obviously your passion, but not your money maker. As a previous 1d owner, now a Mark II, I would never tell anyone to get a lower end model, cause it simply isn't the same... build quality, focusing, ability to shoot in the rain or snow, etc. But in your case, you seem to need the file sizes and color settings of the 20d and only need the "speed of a camera" doing your recreation (sports). If portraits are your primary gig (paying the bills) go with the 20d. But, if some how you could afford a Mark II go for it. If you're going to opt for a Mark II you better make damn sure it's going to make you way more than $2500 in a year! If it's not going to make you two to three times that amount don't bother... the debt isn't worth it, especially fresh out of college. Go for 2 20d's and stick the $1500 you've saved not getting the mark II in a savings acount for the future. Or buy a 1d... just to let you know... there's a significant difference between 5 fps vs. 8. So write out a pro and con list and decide for yourself.
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Collin Pierson, Photographer, Student/Intern
Milwaukee | WI | USA | Posted: 10:43 AM on 09.28.04
->> i have to ask the same question as craig...does the 20d have the backfocusing issues and such???? such a dilemma here!

collin
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Allen Lester, Photographer
Norfolk | VA | USA | Posted: 12:05 PM on 09.28.04
->> Collin,
I’ve shot six events (3-running races, triathlon, beach challenge and surfing) over the past two weekends with a 20D and have not experienced the same back focusing issues of the 10D. Also, there is a much higher percentage of shots in focus. The 10D is horrible at locking focus on the lead runner in a pack of three or four runners. Too many times the trailing runner is the one that the 10D AI servo selects. An interesting side note on our original 10D. The back focus issue got so bad that it made a trip to Canon in NJ. When it came home it was greatly improved, so there is hope for those 10ds.
Allen
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Robert G. Stevens, Photographer
Halifax | NS | Canada | Posted: 12:31 PM on 09.28.04
->> Collin:

Keep your 10D for the portraits and buy a used 1D for the sports. An in focus 4mp image always beats an out of focus 6mp or 8mp image.

The 1/500th sync on the 1d also does a better job when you need to use flash in darker venues. Image 3 on my members page is an example of the 1D in a dark venue with fill flash. I was at 1600asa, f2.8 and 1/400th with a 400mm f2.8.
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Collin Pierson, Photographer, Student/Intern
Milwaukee | WI | USA | Posted: 1:59 PM on 09.28.04
->> unless i can get a 1d for the freakishly low price of 1500 bucks...getting the keepin the 10d and getting the 1d sounds outta the question sadly...still accepting donations to the Collin Pierson foundation! kidding!

grr so frustrating!
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Andy White, Photographer
Neenah | WI | USA | Posted: 2:36 PM on 09.28.04
->> Collin,

Maybe the 20D is the way to go for you at the moment.

Personaly I just picked up a gently used D2000 for $450, not quite the same as what you looking at.
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Craig Peterson, Photographer
St. Petersburg | FL | US | Posted: 4:29 PM on 09.28.04
->> Collin.......I just got home from the camera store with my new 20D.....I pondered getting a used 1D, and using my 10D as a backup, but I just can't afford to have two bodies. Since I can only keep one body at this point, I chose the 20D because I can have file size AND good AF (not to mention E-TTL II for flash). I really trust the people at my local camera shop (North Tampa Photo) and the sales person I deal with there (Ron) assured me, in fact, garaunteed me that the 20D AF is just as good as the 1D AF. He owns and uses the 1D, 1DMKII, 10D and 20D. I also thought about what Phil said, buying into old technology......Plus I'd rather have a new camera than a used one, and since I can't afford a new MK II, the 20D was my choice......I'm breaking it in at the NASCAR race in Talladega this weekend, so we'll see how it goes....That being said, anyone need a used 10D?

Craig
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Jolana Howard, Photo Editor, Photographer
Sacramento | CA | USA | Posted: 6:46 PM on 09.28.04
->> I feel SO much better knowing that I'm not the only one who has 10D AF problems!! I have to lock one of the focusing boxes and TRY to keep it covering my subject, but you know how fast athletes move. It's been so bad that I thought about mastering manual focus. I just can't understand how a camera that cost around $1,500 can't focus on the main subject which is usually filing up a big area in the center of the image! I thought that the 10D is supossed to be profesional grade equipment, but the AF SUCKS!!! I explained my situation to someone else, and he concluded that the problem was me, but now I remember that he shoots with Nikon, and I don't know how much if any experience he has with the 10D.
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Collin Pierson, Photographer, Student/Intern
Milwaukee | WI | USA | Posted: 8:45 PM on 09.28.04
->> yah...10 isnt great for sports at all....ive had more trouble backfocusing and bouncing than with my old A2E that i used to have!

collin
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Phil Hampel, Photographer
Barrington | IL | USA | Posted: 2:22 PM on 09.29.04
->> Craig,

I have not experienced a back focus problem on the 20D. For that matter I never had a back focus problem on the 1D either. The 10D had problems back focusing. I think the AF is just as fast as using the 1D with 9 points. I do think that there is an advantage to having the 45 points on the 1-series body but its a marginal improvement.

With the 20D the percentage of accurate auto focus shots is much greater than the 10D. So far I'm happy with my decision to go with 20D. But that's just me. Your hapiness may vary....
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Collin Pierson, Photographer, Student/Intern
Milwaukee | WI | USA | Posted: 5:32 PM on 09.29.04
->> well looks like i might take the plunge for a 20d before basketball season...who knows...thanks for all your thoughts and comments! GO SPORTSSHOOTER!
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Andy White, Photographer
Neenah | WI | USA | Posted: 8:32 PM on 09.29.04
->> Collin,

Let us know how it works for you.
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Andy Altenburger, Photographer
Tiffin | OH | USA | Posted: 1:57 PM on 09.30.04
->> OK, I just picked up a 20D. What would you suggest keeping as a backup body, a D60 or 10D? I have both. The D60 has less than 3K shots taken on it while the 10D has about 10K. I'm thinking I'll get $150 or so more from the sale of the 10D, so I'm thinking about keeping that one. Thoughts?
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Collin Pierson, Photographer, Student/Intern
Milwaukee | WI | USA | Posted: 4:14 PM on 09.30.04
->> let us know how the 20D goes andy!! id keep the 10d which has better color and digic and the whole zoom/better screen etc etc.
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Anthony Fabrikant, Student/Intern, Photographer
Moscow | PA | USA | Posted: 9:33 AM on 10.02.04
->> Unfortunately, I have had the chance to use all but the 20D. I had 2 1Ds for the longest time, until they were stolen at LAX. Then, because the 1D was dropped and not available at the time, I had no choice but to shoot with the 10D for two months. I actually developed a tallent of releasing the shutter 1 1/2 seconds before the point of action (go figure). Finally, the MKII became available and the 10D is a strict backup. My studio work is RZ67-based. I will soon try to sell my 10D and purchase te 20D.

I will formidably note that although the 10D had its shortcommings, it pulled me through the hard times.

Do my fellow sportsshooters feel the 20D is a good backup to the MKII or is there a better suggestion?

-Anthony
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Thread Title: 20D or 1D for a 10D shooter
Thread Started By: Collin Pierson
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